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ChrisL

Are you “assigned” a sex or “born” a sex?

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Going through a required online Sexual Harassment  course and thought the use of the word “assigned” interesting.  So you are not born a male or female, the sex is assigned to you?

I guess from a literal sense and legally you could say that but biologically?

As an aside, as I multitask with the course running in the background, every time it stops & asks me a question I just answer “unacceptable”.  So far I’m 100%!  

 

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I'm a lesbian trapped in a mans body.

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Just now, late said:

I'm a lesbian trapped in a mans body.

Me too!

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There seems to be a difference between the definitions of sex and gender.  All I know is that one involves chromosomes and the other is a personal choice.

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I like sex.

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A different option:

image.png.2a96f05794e6ede35447ce808700aa30.png

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4 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

There seems to be a difference between the definitions of sex and gender.  All I know is that one involves chromosomes and the other is a personal choice.

Yeah that seems to be the case in this course. 

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This is why Oregon is leading the nation in this respect.  You do not have to claim a gender.  

This way, a child can choose for themselves.  

Personally, I think that you are born with traits.  Maybe not all of them are what we consider mainstream. 

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.

 

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There is the science answer and the other one with unlimited possibilities.  Like, male/female/shoe for example. Make up whatever you like. :) 

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You should see the arguments in the electrical world on male and female connectors...............or when might a female receptacle have male pins.  :nodhead:

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I bought a men's cycling jersey from China (Ebay). It came with a zipper on the wimmens side. Fore shadowing?  Am I transitioning? I don't like Tri's.What is a women to do?

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11 minutes ago, Scrapr said:

I bought a men's cycling jersey from China (Ebay). It came with a zipper on the wimmens side. Fore shadowing?  Am I transitioning? I don't like Tri's.What is a women to do?

Most men's cycling jerseys have the zipper on the woman's side.  So stop using the women's restrooms on bike rides.

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2 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

There seems to be a difference between the definitions of sex and gender.  All I know is that one involves chromosomes and the other is a personal choice.

And that's an issue.  You can't address a situation without identifying it.  trying to pretend there is no biological component to this undermines the problems posed when people sometimes have different emotional and biological genders.  So it's not "assigned" it's what equipment you were born with.  You then have the opportunity to decide how to use it.

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2 hours ago, ChrisL said:

 

Going through a required online Sexual Harassment  course and thought the use of the word “assigned” interesting.  So you are not born a male or female, the sex is assigned to you?

I guess from a literal sense and legally you could say that but biologically?

As an aside, as I multitask with the course running in the background, every time it stops & asks me a question I just answer “unacceptable”.  So far I’m 100%!  

 

Similarly, when they ask what things you have to do or what rules apply, all of the above is always a winner! :D

 

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33 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

I mean I truly don't understand it. 

You are way too normal! :) 

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I'm surprised you fuckers haven't had this thread removed by now.  

I'm a cisgender robot named Bender.  

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1 hour ago, 12string said:

And that's an issue.  You can't address a situation without identifying it.  trying to pretend there is no biological component to this undermines the problems posed when people sometimes have different emotional and biological genders.  So it's not "assigned" it's what equipment you were born with.  You then have the opportunity to decide how to use it.

The opportunity to choose how to use it in ways that addresses a person’s deepest, natural instinct....does vary in various socio-cultural situations.

What is a bit puzzling for some heterosexual females (myself and friends) is declaration of same sex orientation in the workplace. What for?  Is it for other colleagues to know hunks of a person’s non-work background that doesn’t relate to job competencies and job skills?  I work in an organization that mandates employees to take diversity training, a code of behaviour, occasional e-newsletter  employee profiles issued on person’s job roles, interesting job stuff they’ve done, hobbies, volunteer work and if employee wants it, photos of their significant other and children...this includes same sex marriages, etc.  Joke that put down others on race, gender, etc. Is part of unacceptable workplace behaviour.  I work in the public sector....where no matter what private sector folks thinks, the public does place a far greater (rightly or unfairly) better equitable treatment in workplace and with external groups/public.  There are various mechanisms to force some public sector bodies in Canada greater transparency how workplace behaviour is like and how public has been treated....and that is access info. Law, public filming of public sector employees in public areas, events, etc.

I know several employees who have been told by other employees who self-identified as gay. That’s nice. What am I supposed to do with info. If you’re a good or bad  employee already?  Why should my sexual preference or my colleague’s sexual preference even be self-declared or known the workplace for daily operations/services especially in jobs that are non-social services oriented?

I learned a long time ago, that I don’t disclose much personal background info.  Or ongoing family dramas/problem, etc. After working for several different employers,  most employees.....they don’t care. Not at all. They really don’t know the full picture of a person’s background and the path they have walked in life outside of work (and don’t even know where I’ve worked in the past.).

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1 hour ago, Parr8hed said:

I guess I am just old fashioned.  I am of the belief that if you have a penis you're a dude.  If you have a vagina you are a girl.  I like things simple.  I respect the fact that there is a lot more that goes into this, surgeries, hormones, etc..... But I just don't get all of the "gender indentify" stuff.  I mean I truly don't understand it.  

 

More specifically though, your DNA dictates it.  That entire chromosomal thing screws up everyone's touchy feely BS.  No matter what surgeries or hormones you take, the DNA still tells the truth and there is no changing that.

Now before everyone goes all caveman on me, that doesn't mean you can't dress and act how ever the hell you want, doesn't bother me one bit.  I work with transgenders.  The issue though comes into the realm of athletics and things like that though and I am sorry, you shouldn't just be able to arbitrarily decide you want to be the other sex and then compete as no matter what medicines you take, you still have an unfair advantage over the competition when the DNA says XY, but you want to compete as a XX.  It screws some good female athletes out of achievements doing so.

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my birth certificate says male, I'm choosing to live my life as a dude :)

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2 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

You should see the arguments in the electrical world on male and female connectors...............or when might a female receptacle have male pins.  :nodhead:

When you're wiring starts having babies.

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3 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Going through a required online Sexual Harassment  course and thought the use of the word “assigned” interesting.  So you are not born a male or female, the sex is assigned to you?

I guess from a literal sense and legally you could say that but biologically?

As an aside, as I multitask with the course running in the background, every time it stops & asks me a question I just answer “unacceptable”.  So far I’m 100%!  

 

Born. Duh. 

 

The duh is not for you, just folks that think you can check a different box and make it so. 

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1 hour ago, Parr8hed said:

I guess I am just old fashioned.  I am of the belief that if you have a penis you're a dude.  If you have a vagina you are a girl.  I like things simple.  I respect the fact that there is a lot more that goes into this, surgeries, hormones, etc..... But I just don't get all of the "gender indentify" stuff.  I mean I truly don't understand it.  

 

It is that fucking simple! Innies or outies, that is it, classified.  

Sure, you want to change later on, then do it, but the question about how you are born/what gender.  

I am sure you are pretty much born with your preferences, too, although those pop out later in life. 

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2 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Born. Duh. 

 

The duh is not for you, just folks that think you can check a different box and make it so. 

I knew I could count on you for a reality check.  It is an A or B choice with the exception of the odd genetic error.   If you want to play a role, go ahead. 

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43 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

It is that fucking simple! Innies or outies, that is it, classified.  

Sure, you want to change later on, then do it, but the question about how you are born/what gender.  

I am sure you are pretty much born with your preferences, too, although those pop out later in life. 

And let me just state for the record that I don't care what you are.  I don't care what you dress like, if you carry a purse or not.  I don't care what parts you have.  Do your thing.  If you treat me good, I'll treat you good right back.  Just don't try to create categories just for you.  

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46 minutes ago, late said:

When you're wiring starts having babies.

Seriously.  For much of the civilian world connector sex is determined by pins and sockets.  Milspec connectors however are determined by whether the connector is a plug or a receptacle where either can have pins or sockets.  The Milspec method is very clear but confuses those in the civilian world who want to see a receptical as male if it has pins and female if it has sockets.  This is probably because some connectors have no plug or receptacle, just pins or sockets.  You can see where this causes confusion and some simply decide to define things they way they want.  :nodhead:

It gets worse when a plug goes looking for a receptacle and both turn out to have pins.

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milspec receptacle with pins (left) and a milspec plug with sockets. (right).  The connector on the right actually slides into the socket on the left while the locking collar threads around the outside.  It is possible to have a different insert in either so the pins and sockets are reversed but the receptacle remain the same.

Image result for mil spec plug

Here is a plug with pins and a receptacle with sockets.

Image result for mil spec plug

:frantics:

 

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That choose your own gender is a bunch of BS except for the instance of babies born with two complete sets of sexual organs. I don’t have an answer for that but I feel sorry for them. It’s not their fault. Maybe DNA can help sort that out. It used to be the doctor and the parents got together and decided what they wanted the baby to be. Now I think they wait and let the child decide. I don’t know the answer but what a horrible thing to stick a child with.

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3 hours ago, Parr8hed said:

I guess I am just old fashioned.  I am of the belief that if you have a penis you're a dude.  If you have a vagina you are a girl.  I like things simple.  I respect the fact that there is a lot more that goes into this, surgeries, hormones, etc..... But I just don't get all of the "gender indentify" stuff.  I mean I truly don't understand it.  

 

Specific to my question, I was referencing harassment in the workplace.  You have to define sex & gender identification  before you can label it a protected class.  I get that aspect of it and don’t have an issue with it.  

It does lead down a slippery slope with bathrooms, athletics and a whole host of gender bending situations.

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4 hours ago, Indy said:

More specifically though, your DNA dictates it. 

Not always, while it is simple most of the time, x's and y's don't always end up where they belong.

4 hours ago, Randomguy said:

It is that fucking simple! Innies or outies, that is it, classified.  

See above.  Rarely people are born with both sets of reproductive organs.

While I am in the parr8 camp, I also accept your right to identify as whatever you choose, just force me to accept it.

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6 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

Not always, while it is simple most of the time, x's and y's don't always end up where they belong.

See above.  Rarely people are born with both sets of reproductive organs.

While I am in the parr8 camp, I also accept your right to identify as whatever you choose, just force me to accept it.

Again, I was referring to the original question as to the very obvious plumbing you are born with. You ARE born with that plumbing.  If you are born a chick, you can poop out offspring if someone born a dude plows that particular field. 

If you mean later in life, you are still saddled with that same plumbing. It might not match the brain plumbing, which certainly doesn’t seem like a choice at all and sucks if the brain and body don’t match up.   I don’t envy the colossal efforts undertaken to get them to surgically match up. 

Anyway, I don’t hold it against someone trying to get themselves there, and I will be respectful and call them a name they choose, etc One of our forum peeps has gone through this with their very cool offspring, now a chick, I believe. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Specific to my question, I was referencing harassment in the workplace.  You have to define sex & gender identification  before you can label it a protected class.  I get that aspect of it and don’t have an issue with it.  

It does lead down a slippery slope with bathrooms, athletics and a whole host of gender bending situations.

I don’t think there is any slope with athletics. You are born a dude, you compete against other born dudes, period.  No room for discussion, you can’t just saunter over and beat up on the chicks after a lifetime of musculature and development get slightly altered when a surgeon lops off your nuts. 

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Mostly people are born biologically male or female. That means they have the sexual characteristics of either the male of the species or the female.  There are hermaphrodites and others who exhibit crossover characteristics. But for the same of clarity I’ll leave them out of this discussion. It would be pedantic to assume anyone here is referencing them.

 

However, we live in an imperfect world.  There are those who are born biologically male who, for reasons science is beginning to understand, have brain functions that are far more aligned with/exhibit female traits and vice versa. 

This is where the confusion is. A person’s biological sex may be one thing, but their  psychological and brain chemical makeup may be of the ‘gender’ characteristics of the opposite biological sex. 

There is a fair amount of research and a growing body of evidence to support this.

And I’m sorry, whether anyone accepts this or not, their non-acceptance doesn’t invalidate the veracity of it.

Personally, I do not believe that every person who claims gender confusion issues fits the category I am discussing. I think we live in an age where it has become ‘chic’ in many ways to claim so. It can also be a method if garnering attention.

But I’m not here to make those judgement calls. What I am doing is expressing that there are those who suffer a lifetime of gender dysphoria for which gender reassignment provides the only relief from that pain and who make their transition silently without public display and wish with all that is in them that the world only ever saw them as the gender their brains made them. It wasn’t a ‘choice’.  It’s an condition they did not choose and for which they only seek correction so they can live their life free of the incongruity. 

Noone here has to accept this.  We all have to choose what we accept/believe. But just because something is beyond someone’s realm of experience, that does not invalidate it.

And the hell that those who transition often go through to attain that inner peace of mind and heart - the loss of friends, spouses, jobs and other societal complications - should offer cause for thought.  It’s a lot to lose. But for them, it’s better than losing their lives or living in a gender hell. 

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9 minutes ago, Zealot said:

Mostly people are born biologically male or female. That means they have the sexual characteristics of either the male if the species or the female.  There are hermaphrodites and others who exhibit crossover characteristics. But did the same of clarity I’ll leave them out of this discussion. It would be pedantic to assume anyone here is referencing them.

 

However, we live in an imperfect world.  There are those who are born biologically male who, for reasons science is beginning to understand, have brain functions that are far more aligned with/exhibit female traits and vice versa. 

This is where the confusion is. A person’s biological sex may be one thing, but their  psychological and brain chemical makeup may be of the ‘gender’ characteristics of the opposite biological sex. 

There is a fair amount of research and a growing body of evidence to support this.

And I’m sorry, whether anyone accepts this or not, their non-acceptance doesn’t invalidate the veracity of it.

Personally, I do not believe that every person who claims gender confusion issues fits the category I am discussing. I think we live in an age where it has become ‘chic’ in many ways to claim so. It can also be a method if garnering attention.

But I’m not here to make those judgement calls. What I am doing is expressing that there are those who suffer a lifetime of gender dysphoria for which gender reassignment provides the only relief from that pain and who make their transition silently without public display and wish with all that is in them that the world only ever saw them as the gender their brains made them. It wasn’t a ‘choice’.  It’s an condition they did not choose and for which they only seek correction so they can live their life free of the incongruity. 

Noone here has to accept this.  We all have to choose what we accept/believe. But just because something is beyond someone’s realm of experience, that does not invalidate it.

And the hell that those who transition often go through to attain that inner peace of mind and heart - the loss of friends, spouses, jobs and other societal complications - should offer cause for thought.  It’s a lot to lose. But for them, it’s better than losing their lives of living in a gender hell. 

Yea, I have been waiting for you to chime in here.   I can certain see what you are saying.  I think the people that think it's "chic" or seek attention kinda muddy the waters so to speak for everyone else.  It can be very confusing.  

For the most part none of this bothers me at all.  I have a hard time accepting people that have been biologically male and "identify" as females and try to compete with them athletically.  This is where I really have trouble understanding.  

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17 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

milspec receptacle with pins (left) and a milspec plug with sockets. (right).  The connector on the right actually slides into the socket on the left while the locking collar threads around the outside.  It is possible to have a different insert in either so the pins and sockets are reversed but the receptacle remain the same.

Image result for mil spec plug

Here is a plug with pins and a receptacle with sockets.

Image result for mil spec plug

:frantics:

 

I had that problem with rs232 db25 or db9 plugs. Did the male/ female refer to the pins or the body they were built into. I just kept a box full of gender benders to deal with it. :D

Thank goodness usb came along!

 

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9 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

Yea, I have been waiting for you to chime in here.   I can certain see what you are saying.  I think the people that think it's "chic" or seek attention kinda muddy the waters so to speak for everyone else.  It can be very confusing.  

For the most part none of this bothers me at all.  I have a hard time accepting people that have been biologically male and "identify" as females and try to compete with them athletically.  This is where I really have trouble understanding.  

I try to stay out of this mostly these days. It is very personal for me.  

As for the athletic debate, my personal belief is that if a transgender person wants to compete they should first transition. But that is only my opinion. 

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33 minutes ago, Zealot said:

I try to stay out of this mostly these days. It is very personal for me.  

As for the athletic debate, my personal belief is that if a transgender person wants to compete they should first transition. But that is only my opinion. 

Yea, I certainly understand it being personal.  

I am just all over the place on the athletic thing.  It's a very complicated world we live in.  

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1 hour ago, Zealot said:

Mostly people are born biologically male or female. That means they have the sexual characteristics of either the male of the species or the female.  There are hermaphrodites and others who exhibit crossover characteristics. But for the same of clarity I’ll leave them out of this discussion. It would be pedantic to assume anyone here is referencing them.

 

However, we live in an imperfect world.  There are those who are born biologically male who, for reasons science is beginning to understand, have brain functions that are far more aligned with/exhibit female traits and vice versa. 

This is where the confusion is. A person’s biological sex may be one thing, but their  psychological and brain chemical makeup may be of the ‘gender’ characteristics of the opposite biological sex. 

There is a fair amount of research and a growing body of evidence to support this.

And I’m sorry, whether anyone accepts this or not, their non-acceptance doesn’t invalidate the veracity of it.

Personally, I do not believe that every person who claims gender confusion issues fits the category I am discussing. I think we live in an age where it has become ‘chic’ in many ways to claim so. It can also be a method if garnering attention.

But I’m not here to make those judgement calls. What I am doing is expressing that there are those who suffer a lifetime of gender dysphoria for which gender reassignment provides the only relief from that pain and who make their transition silently without public display and wish with all that is in them that the world only ever saw them as the gender their brains made them. It wasn’t a ‘choice’.  It’s an condition they did not choose and for which they only seek correction so they can live their life free of the incongruity. 

Noone here has to accept this.  We all have to choose what we accept/believe. But just because something is beyond someone’s realm of experience, that does not invalidate it.

And the hell that those who transition often go through to attain that inner peace of mind and heart - the loss of friends, spouses, jobs and other societal complications - should offer cause for thought.  It’s a lot to lose. But for them, it’s better than losing their lives or living in a gender hell. 

I am pretty simple minded on this stuff but I liken it to the treatment of diabetes.  We don't treat the problem, we change the result.  Is it a psychological issue or is it a gene issue or a chromosome issue?  Changing the physical bits seems a surface fix to me but maybe that is all we are capable of at the moment.  The suicide rates among transgenders after reassignment don't change over those who do not undergo the surgery and hormone replacement.  That tells me, we aren't treating the issue.  We are changing the blood glucose, not the cause, to complete my analogy.  

One day, we will understand but I think we are a very long way from that. 

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8 minutes ago, wilbur said:

I am pretty simple minded on this stuff but I liken it to the treatment of diabetes.  We don't treat the problem, we change the result.  Is it a psychological issue or is it a gene issue or a chromosome issue?  Changing the physical bits seems a surface fix to me but maybe that is all we are capable of at the moment.  The suicide rates among transgenders after reassignment don't change over those who do not undergo the surgery and hormone replacement.  That tells me, we aren't treating the issue.  We are changing the blood glucose, not the cause, to complete my analogy.  

One day, we will understand but I think we are a very long way from that. 

Good point.

When there is a new treatment, you are supposed to do safety and efficacy studies. These mostly have not happened. We are, indeed, a long ways from knowing what we're doing.

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1 hour ago, wilbur said:

I am pretty simple minded on this stuff but I liken it to the treatment of diabetes.  We don't treat the problem, we change the result.  Is it a psychological issue or is it a gene issue or a chromosome issue?  Changing the physical bits seems a surface fix to me but maybe that is all we are capable of at the moment.  The suicide rates among transgenders after reassignment don't change over those who do not undergo the surgery and hormone replacement.  That tells me, we aren't treating the issue.  We are changing the blood glucose, not the cause, to complete my analogy.  

One day, we will understand but I think we are a very long way from that. 

It becomes a psychological issue because of a biogenetic issue. And in a world that doesn’t easily accept it, the psychological issue becomes more intense.  

Trust me when I say this, they treat the mental issues well before ever recommending that a person transitions.  It’s a lengthy process.  

 

Like I said, it’s difficult to understand if it isn’t something that affects you. 

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One of my best friends daughters is now her son.  He had a double mastectomy this summer.  He's on hormone therapy.  She's not sure what other surgeries may be in store, he's stopped for now.  It was a surprise to hear, and it's been really hard on my friend.  I have only been supportive for her.  I've seen him since the surgery, he seems happy, but then I really don't know her kids personally.  I let him drive my new car.

My worry for people who choose hormone treatment is, that is is not natural, and will likely have long term and possibly disastrous outcomes later in life.  A biologic female is not physiologically designed to have that much testosterone for their entire life.

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I’m asking for one, small shift in the way we address this conversation: calling someone “a transgender” or referring to a group of people as “the transgenders” amplifies their gender identity over their personhood. Person first in all ways. Just as I wouldn’t call someone “a diabetic.” Or someone else “a retard.” We are people who see person in others. 

It’s not political correctness that compels me to ask. It’s a worldview that shares a fundamental human connection with others. Call it namaste, divine spark, shared DNA, empathy. We go a long way toward understanding others when we lead with their fullness of personhood. 

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1 minute ago, roadsue said:

I’m asking for one, small shift in the way we address this conversation: calling someone “a transgender” or referring to a group of people as “the transgenders” amplifies their gender identity over their personhood. Person first in all ways. Just as I wouldn’t call someone “a diabetic.” Or someone else “a retard.” We are people who see person in others. 

It’s not political correctness that compels me to ask. It’s a worldview that shares a fundamental human connection with others. Call it namaste, divine spark, shared DNA, empathy. We go a long way toward understanding others when we lead with their fullness of personhood. 

Fair enough.  Can I still refer to @AirwickWithCheese as a doofus? 

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8 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

One of my best friends daughters is now her son.  He had a double mastectomy this summer.  He's on hormone therapy.  She's not sure what other surgeries may be in store, he's stopped for now.  It was a surprise to hear, and it's been really hard on my friend.  I have only been supportive for her.  I've seen him since the surgery, he seems happy, but then I really don't know her kids personally.  I let him drive my new car.

My worry for people who choose hormone treatment is, that is is not natural, and will likely have long term and possibly disastrous outcomes later in life.  A biologic female is not physiologically designed to have that much testosterone for their entire life.

Add to the physical changes another series of civic amendments to birth certificates, licenses, titles, etc.

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Just now, roadsue said:

Add to the physical changes another series of civic amendments to birth certificates, licenses, titles, etc.

The last time I got a new drivers license, I was allowed to select my gender.  I can't remember the options, but I believe it was more than just male or female.

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1 minute ago, Square Wheels said:

Fair enough.  Can I still refer to @AirwickWithCheese as a doofus? 

That’s not my call. Names between friends take on special meaning. If he’s your doofus, and you’re his little boo, that’s all wrapped in your personal history and the joy of a shared connection. 

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4 minutes ago, roadsue said:

Add to the physical changes another series of civic amendments to birth certificates, licenses, titles, etc.

Yes.  This is why laws, like we have in Oregon, makes things easier for those that re Q, in the LGBTQ society.

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Just now, roadsue said:

That’s not my call. Names between friends take on special meaning. If he’s your doofus, and you’re his little boo, that’s all wrapped in your personal history and the joy of a shared connection. 

I did not interact with my friends daughter before her mastectomy, but my friend said she preferred to be referred to as they.

My wife read a book that she found fascinating.  Can't remember if she liked the book itself, but the people all had neutral names, and they never referred to anyone's gender.

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1 minute ago, Square Wheels said:

The last time I got a new drivers license, I was allowed to select my gender.  I can't remember the options, but I believe it was more than just male or female.

Some states require a birth certificate change, predicated by reassignment surgery, before allowing drivers license gender change. 

I’ve been following the conversation about athletic participation at various levels. In NM the NMAA policy is that students have to compete as their assigned gender. But most schools have a locker room/bathroom use policy that allows for separate space for changing clothes, etc. 

Our transgender students have said they’d rather just not get involved in clubs and activities to save having to deal with accommodations. Which hotel room? Stay with the girls because I have girl parts? Stay with the boys because I identify male and everything about me looks boy, except genitalia? Having allies among peers is often a struggle, too. How will the other boys in the room react to sharing a bed and a bathroom with a male student who still has a uterus and perhaps menstruates? 

If we frame the conversation around the opportunity to win, female athletes are at a disadvantage against transgender athletes who have already expressed male muscle growth and T levels. But if we frame the conversation around opportunity to participate for transgender students, then winning and record are secondary to inclusive competition. Meaning they cannot be used as factors for scholarships, and colleges need to make that shift. 

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