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Are you “assigned” a sex or “born” a sex?

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27 minutes ago, roadsue said:

Some states require a birth certificate change, predicated by reassignment surgery, before allowing drivers license gender change. 

I’ve been following the conversation about athletic participation at various levels. In NM the NMAA policy is that students have to compete as their assigned gender. But most schools have a locker room/bathroom use policy that allows for separate space for changing clothes, etc. 

Our transgender students have said they’d rather just not get involved in clubs and activities to save having to deal with accommodations. Which hotel room? Stay with the girls because I have girl parts? Stay with the boys because I identify male and everything about me looks boy, except genitalia? Having allies among peers is often a struggle, too. How will the other boys in the room react to sharing a bed and a bathroom with a male student who still has a uterus and perhaps menstruates? 

If we frame the conversation around the opportunity to win, female athletes are at a disadvantage against transgender athletes who have already expressed male muscle growth and T levels. But if we frame the conversation around opportunity to participate for transgender students, then winning and record are secondary to inclusive competition. Meaning they cannot be used as factors for scholarships, and colleges need to make that shift. 

The problem is that colleges haven't made that shift yet.  Here in CT there is a lawsuit going on with female students on one hand and the state high school athletic commission on the other.  The girls are not getting the places in track and field events that they deserve and are not getting the attention from college coaches is the claim.  We have two formerly male athletes who are dominating the sport at the high school level in the state and the girls are racing for third.  It's like competing against Bulgarian women weight lifters in the 60's.  There's a whole lot of "chemicalizing" going on.

Image result for ct transgender track trouble

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43 minutes ago, roadsue said:

I’m asking for one, small shift in the way we address this conversation: calling someone “a transgender” or referring to a group of people as “the transgenders” amplifies their gender identity over their personhood. Person first in all ways. Just as I wouldn’t call someone “a diabetic.” Or someone else “a retard.” We are people who see person in others. 

It’s not political correctness that compels me to ask. It’s a worldview that shares a fundamental human connection with others. Call it namaste, divine spark, shared DNA, empathy. We go a long way toward understanding others when we lead with their fullness of personhood. 

Compelled speech is unacceptable to me.  It is also a contravention of your much beloved, Second Amendment.  How about we just respect one another as people, do our best to understand all points of view/opinion, learn as much as possible bout the topics and keep dialogue civilized?  As for the labels, it is the affected community that has imposed those.  The straight community did not coin LGBTQ etc.  Nor do they insist on the correct use of the labels or prefixes.  

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11 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

The problem is that colleges haven't made that shift yet.  Here in CT there is a lawsuit going on with female students on one hand and the state high school athletic commission on the other.  The girls are not getting the places in track and field events that they deserve and are not getting the attention from college coaches is the claim.  We have two formerly male athletes who are dominating the sport at the high school level in the state and the girls are racing for third.  It's like competing against Bulgarian women weight lifters in the 60's.  There's a whole lot of "chemicalizing" going on.

Image result for ct transgender track trouble

I hear you. These aren’t merely shifts in “let the kids play” referee over-reach. The impacts are real. 

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11 minutes ago, wilbur said:

Compelled speech is unacceptable to me.  It is also a contravention of your much beloved, Second Amendment.  How about we just respect one another as people, do our best to understand all points of view/opinion, learn as much as possible bout the topics and keep dialogue civilized?  As for the labels, it is the affected community that has imposed those.  The straight community did not coin LGBTQ etc.  Nor do they insist on the correct use of the labels or prefixes.  

All speech is compelled. You’ve made the force behind your words quite clear. As have I. 

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33 minutes ago, roadsue said:

I hear you. These aren’t merely shifts in “let the kids play” referee over-reach. The impacts are real. 

Correct.  At the level involved there is money in play.  Scholarships to college for athletics is still a big business and for the kids it's often the ticket to their education.

On the other hand, IMO it's still impossible to compete as a woman in the olympics if you have the wrong chromosome mix.  That game left the room back in the last century when there was a lot of international cheating going on.

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5 hours ago, roadsue said:

It’s not political correctness that compels me to ask. It’s a worldview that shares a fundamental human connection with others. Call it namaste, divine spark, shared DNA, empathy. We go a long way toward understanding others when we lead with their fullness of personhood. 

God, I love you, Susan.

You are a very special person.

Peace

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6 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

Correct.  At the level involved there is money in play.  Scholarships to college for athletics is still a big business and for the kids it's often the ticket to their education.

On the other hand, IMO it's still impossible to compete as a woman in the olympics if you have the wrong chromosome mix.  That game left the room back in the last century when there was a lot of international cheating going on.

The Olympic discussions involve testing androgen levels to determine where an athlete can compete. 

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13 minutes ago, roadsue said:

The Olympic discussions involve testing androgen levels to determine where an athlete can compete. 

What happened to the xy chromosome rules?

Edit:  I must be getting old.

Chromosome testing was introduced by the International Olympic Committee during the 1968 Summer Olympics. This tested for the Y-chromosome, and was designed to identify males potentially disguised as females. This method of testing was later abolished, as it was shown to be inconclusive in identifying maleness.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8272686  Some interesting information in the last 5 lines of the abstract.  

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On 9/7/2019 at 9:10 AM, Zealot said:

I try to stay out of this mostly these days. It is very personal for me.  

As for the athletic debate, my personal belief is that if a transgender person wants to compete they should first transition. But that is only my opinion. 

The issue is, often even after the transition, their muscle structure lags far enough behind that they still have quite the advantage.  To me, it comes down to a choice of you want to compete or you want do gender reassignment, once you do reassignment, competitive athletics is off the table.

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8 minutes ago, Indy said:

The issue is, often even after the transition, their muscle structure lags far enough behind that they still have quite the advantage.  To me, it comes down to a choice of you want to compete or you want do gender reassignment, once you do reassignment, competitive athletics is off the table.

Actually Indy, if the WPATH standards of care are followed, a person is usually on HRT and living RLT (real life test) for at least a year. During a year or two of HRT, many things change within the physical male body that pretty much negate the male advantages. Like everything else though there are all kinds of factors, including age and health when one transitions. And like all humans no two physical structures are alike.  For me personally, when I was young, and until I started serious weight training in my 20s, my bone structure was very slight and lightweight, far more in line with a female’s.  But that’s not really the point.  For many athletes who have undergone the path to transition, they don’t typically dominate their respective fields. I think what we are seeing today are the athletes who “identify” as the opposite sex, but who do not undergo transition who are having the huge advantages.  And yes, I take exception to that as well. 

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11 hours ago, Zealot said:

Actually Indy, if the WPATH standards of care are followed, a person is usually on HRT and living RLT (real life test) for at least a year. During a year or two of HRT, many things change within the physical male body that pretty much negate the male advantages. Like everything else though there are all kinds of factors, including age and health when one transitions. And like all humans no two physical structures are alike.  For me personally, when I was young, and until I started serious weight training in my 20s, my bone structure was very slight and lightweight, far more in line with a female’s.  But that’s not really the point.  For many athletes who have undergone the path to transition, they don’t typically dominate their respective fields. I think what we are seeing today are the athletes who “identify” as the opposite sex, but who do not undergo transition who are having the huge advantages.  And yes, I take exception to that as well. 

That last part might be it and part of what is causing the confusion then. 

I'm all for people generally living how they want, but the issue is it seems we've entered an era where the desires of an individual (and it only applies to certain individuals) is more important than that of society as a whole.  I just think it's a matter of time before we see a knee jerk reaction back the other way which also wouldn't be good.  But there is one inevitable truth, you push people to hard, to fast, you are eventually going to get a strong reaction.

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1 hour ago, Indy said:

That last part might be it and part of what is causing the confusion then. 

I'm all for people generally living how they want, but the issue is it seems we've entered an era where the desires of an individual (and it only applies to certain individuals) is more important than that of society as a whole.  I just think it's a matter of time before we see a knee jerk reaction back the other way which also wouldn't be good.  But there is one inevitable truth, you push people to hard, to fast, you are eventually going to get a strong reaction.

I concur.  

Indy, there are very vocal and demonstrative members of every representative group in society. I think a lot of those have personal agendas and I believe many are simply trying to right real and perceived wrongs.  But I also know this, most people who transition simply want to fly under the radar; to be accepted for who they are without public aplomb.  But there are instances where, as you’ve stated, they get “pushed too hard” for too long and this causes a move to public action.  I started speaking out not so much because of my own situation, but more because of what I’ve witnessed others go through as they attempt to repair the incongruity of their own being and are faced with prejudice, rejection, humiliation, threats and assault.

I wish I could somehow impart to the naysayers who believe that Gender Dysphoria is anything less than a soul killing, heart wrenching, lifelong, agonizing condition, the often nightmarish truth of the internal struggle that one lives with and which all too often claims one’s life as the only perceivable method of relief.  For those who make the journey and survive and find self alignment, I deeply envy their hard fought success and pray for their continued fulfillment.

I apologize for this diatribe. But this is an emotional topic and the conversation brings it all back to the forefront.  The video I posted earlier symbolizes what my internal and occasional external childhood was like sans the acceptance of a loving parent. However, I did not have her courage. I deeply regret that. With the make-up, I even somewhat resembled her as a child.  This is me then, in ‘boy mode’, but keeping my hair. It’s  the one thing I fought desperately for:

B64DCBF6-625D-42E5-942C-6A2D0D7D76A5.jpeg.578529fa3e813399a982a0f807377d13.jpeg

3FE52CA7-43FD-431B-A8E8-967FB1D0E57D.jpeg.8b40d884d7e17515ff4510437a0de3e5.jpeg

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13 minutes ago, Zealot said:

I concur.  

Indy, there are very vocal and demonstrative members of every representative group in society. I think a lot of those have personal agendas and I believe many are simply trying to right real and perceived wrongs.  But I also know this, most people who transition simply want to fly under the radar; to be accepted for who they are without public aplomb.  But there are instances where, as you’ve stated, they get “pushed too hard” for too long and this causes a move to public action.  I started speaking out not so much because of my own situation, but more because of what I’ve witnessed others go through as they attempt to repair the incongruity of their own being and are faced with prejudice, rejection, humiliation, threats and assault.

I wish I could somehow impart to the naysayers who believe that Gender Dysphoria is anything less than a soul killing, heart wrenching, lifelong, agonizing condition, the often nightmarish truth of the internal struggle that one lives with and which all too often claims one’s life as the only perceivable method of relief.  For those who make the journey and survive and find self alignment, I deeply envy their hard fought success and pray for their continued fulfillment.

I apologize for this diatribe. But this is an emotional topic and the conversation brings it all back to the forefront.  The video I posted earlier symbolizes what my internal and occasional external childhood was like sans the acceptance of a loving parent. However, I did not have her courage. I deeply regret that. With the make-up, I even somewhat resembled her as a child.  This is me then, in ‘boy mode’, but keeping my hair. It’s  the one thing I fought desperately for:

B64DCBF6-625D-42E5-942C-6A2D0D7D76A5.jpeg.578529fa3e813399a982a0f807377d13.jpeg

3FE52CA7-43FD-431B-A8E8-967FB1D0E57D.jpeg.8b40d884d7e17515ff4510437a0de3e5.jpeg

Don't apologize and I agree.  Most I know, also just want to live low key.  Like I said, my only issue is in the realm of athletics.  I've got nieces who are performing at high levels and hoping for scholarships.  So that realm has taken on a little more of a personal level for me than just the general unfair view as it can directly effect them.

 

And by now, you know me well enough to know, I am not always good with my wording.  So don't think that you have said anything to offend me and if I've said anything to offend, wasn't my intent.

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20 minutes ago, Indy said:

Don't apologize and I agree.  Most I know, also just want to live low key.  Like I said, my only issue is in the realm of athletics.  I've got nieces who are performing at high levels and hoping for scholarships.  So that realm has taken on a little more of a personal level for me than just the general unfair view as it can directly effect them.

 

And by now, you know me well enough to know, I am not always good with my wording.  So don't think that you have said anything to offend me and if I've said anything to offend, wasn't my intent.

I understand the issues of unfairness in the athletic arena.  I hope your nieces get fair scholarship competition and that the world of athletics can somehow work all this out.

And your words have been received well. 🙂  Nothing you’ve said has given me cause for offense. I am simply dealing with my own demons. This time of year brings the emotions close to the surface.

 

peace

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On 9/7/2019 at 4:02 PM, Square Wheels said:

We can add all you want, do you have a socially acceptable list to propose?

Chicks and dudes.  You are one or the other.  Additionally, you can surgically and chemically change from one to the other, but there are only two genders.

That is it, nothing else except the the odd exception than have both sets of junk.

On 9/7/2019 at 4:03 PM, wilbur said:

I would propose "no gender". :) 

WRONG!

It had to be said, you know.

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Hey @Indy. I know this clip is old news, but after watching this, how would/does it affect you thought process regarding our conversation?

No pressure and my question isn’t loaded.  I am however curious.  And actually the question is for anyone who’d offer an opinion.

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7 hours ago, Zealot said:

Hey @Indy. I know this clip is old news, but after watching this, how would/does it affect you thought process regarding our conversation?

No pressure and my question isn’t loaded.  I am however curious.  And actually the question is for anyone who’d offer an opinion.

I think it is an extraordinarily difficult question to address because it does infringe on societal norms and individual belief systems.  That for me, would drag this into the P&R realm really quickly and I don't wish that for a topic so close to you.  The scientific and social science groups don't fully understand "gender dysphoria" and they differ greatly in opinion.  In this case, I think 6 years of age is way too young to start transitioning a child as their brain is still 15 years shy of full function.  Again though, that gets political. 

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8 hours ago, Zealot said:

Hey @Indy. I know this clip is old news, but after watching this, how would/does it affect you thought process regarding our conversation?

No pressure and my question isn’t loaded.  I am however curious.  And actually the question is for anyone who’d offer an opinion.

I have no issue with someone being happy and doing what they want if it doesn't really effect others (basically higher level athletics, in this she appears to be a more rec league level where even mixed gender teams are not unusual).  For the most part, what she is doing isn't effecting anyone else, so let them be them.

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2 minutes ago, wilbur said:

I think it is an extraordinarily difficult question to address because it does infringe on societal norms and individual belief systems.  That for me, would drag this into the P&R realm really quickly and I don't wish that for a topic so close to you.  The scientific and social science groups don't fully understand "gender dysphoria" and they differ greatly in opinion.  In this case, I think 6 years of age is way too young to start transitioning a child as their brain is still 15 years shy of full function.  Again though, that gets political. 

I think part of it to me, is we put to much emphasis on so called gender norms for kids when it doesn't matter.  I let my kids do and play with what they want.  With my daughter, she likes her pretty things, but she is also far more rough and tumble than her brother.

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3 hours ago, wilbur said:

I think it is an extraordinarily difficult question to address because it does infringe on societal norms and individual belief systems.  That for me, would drag this into the P&R realm really quickly and I don't wish that for a topic so close to you.  The scientific and social science groups don't fully understand "gender dysphoria" and they differ greatly in opinion.  In this case, I think 6 years of age is way too young to start transitioning a child as their brain is still 15 years shy of full function.  Again though, that gets political. 

Thanks for the consideration, Wilbur.  I know it can be a hot button subject.  I’ve seen it irl.  

 

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Ok, what the hell. I’m going to do this.  I believe most of you know about my gender issues. We may not always all get along. But we always mostly respect each other. 

The universe seems to have converged on me these last couple days. I am tired and worn down. My heart is heavy. This may repulse you, for those who’ve known me have seen the one I had to become. And even though he exists corporeal, the existence is somewhat illusion.

Autumn begins this week. This is my childhood time of year - Halloween was the only time I have ever openly/publicly dressed as a girl. And those displays were always well received. Of course they were, it was Halloween. But to this kid, it meant more. Those times are still good memories.

10 years ago next month, at 44 years of age, after decades of creating a hyper masculine visage, I came out to my wife. What a landslide of emotion for us both. And a journey with no promises. 

15 years ago this month, I penned this poem, after partially coming out to a counselor:

“Me”

I shall not now or ever be

that me I dreamed myself to be

for in that me I fear I see

someone who isn’t really me

 

in times of old when i was three

i could not comprehend or see

that someday I’d grow up to be

less than the one I’d hope for me

 

then one day at ten and three

I learned to dream; thereby to see

a hope of what may never be

but dream I did, a me as she

 

skip ahead to twenty-three

becoming what I thought I’d be

and finding more and more in me

the swelling lie I’d someday see

 

but time goes by at thirty-three

a dreamer dies; there is no me

in reflection now i only see

someone else staring at me

 

and now approaching forty-three

slowly accepting who i see

as no more or less the core of he

who was she when I was three

 

i look ahead to fifty-three

and wonder what it holds for me

will i dream another me

and wake one day only to see

 

that then I’m old at sixty-three

no longer dreaming dreams of me

my life has passed and then I’ll see

only in death will I be free

 

for life is like a web we weave

our dreams assuredly deceive

and teach us only to believe

a lie of things not as they be

 

and readily we seek to please

the self of life who dreams of ease

yet knowing only lies we tease

and truth before us surely flees

 

now i know my dream of me

isn’t who i thought i’d see

from depths of time peering at me

the corpse of she...

...who was only three.

- September 15, 2004

 

Today is bittersweet as the realization dawned on me that my poem written all those years ago would portend this future. 

Mostly, I’ve come to terms with the choices I have made. Mostly, my existence is who I am because ‘my world’ needs this person to be who he is.  And because I love those who’ve been entrusted to me, I remain.  

But today, my heart breaks - for those affected by this topic; for all who know such despair, for the children who have no idea of their situation, only that they are someone that the world tells them they are not. But mostly, I weep for a little girl who never got the chance to grow up; who should have had parents like Jazz’s and Allie’s, who has been sequestered for 50 plus years in a protective haven that ever remains her prison.  Tonight, I’ll drink to her and the beautiful woman she should have been allowed to become. She’d have been amazing. 

4EDE19EA-E569-4FE8-93D2-DCEC00E1243C.jpeg.136179e6dbe931be31a3b5884698c00b.jpeg

 

 

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On 9/6/2019 at 8:11 AM, wilbur said:

Like, makeup whatever you like. :) 

Well, now, if this was intentional pun, it's brilliant. If it was unintentional, it's still brilliant.

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1 hour ago, Zealot said:

because I love those who’ve been entrusted to me, I remain.

I like to think I try to live selflessly.  But sometime, for some reason, I may need to dig down deep to find a measure of strength I don't know that I possess.  And there I'll find your words, and use them for inspiration.  And remember an amazing woman.

 

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1 hour ago, 12string said:

I like to think I try to live selflessly.  But sometime, for some reason, I may need to dig down deep to find a measure of strength I don't know that I possess.  And there I'll find your words, and use them for inspiration.  And remember an amazing woman.

 

I’ll never be able to adequately express how much this touched my heart. So I’ll simply offer a tear stained thank you.

 

Peace, this day. 

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One of the brightest, most enjoyable persons I have had the pleasure working with came out this last couple of years. She was married with kids. I had no trouble accepting and supporting her during this difficult transition. She lost a lot. I am still a friend and in my view, this person has great value. I'm glad you have publically revealed yourself @Zealot on this forum. I always felt you were a compassionate soul and it's a pleasure to finally meet you.

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1 hour ago, Dottie said:

One of the brightest, most enjoyable persons I have had the pleasure working with came out this last couple of years. She was married with kids. I had no trouble accepting and supporting her during this difficult transition. She lost a lot. I am still a friend and in my view, this person has great value. I'm glad you have publically revealed yourself @Zealot on this forum. I always felt you were a compassionate soul and it's a pleasure to finally meet you.

Dottie, thank you for your continued friendship with your coworker.  I am quite certain she cherishes it. It breaks my heart that she lost so much. 

Thanks also for your kind words to me.  This wasn’t intended to be a ‘coming out’ post. I did that quite a few years ago.  I don’t talk about my condition anymore, really. But this was intended to be my permission to myself to have my little ‘pity party’. Just feeling the sorrow. Forgive my indulgence.  I’ve had a few drinks this evening. It helps. 

But if this was all news to you, then “hi! It’s a pleasure to meet you as well.”  🙂

 

Peace

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I think I was pretty closed minded as a youngster.  The older I get, the less I care about how people choose to live their lives.  If you are kind, and can tolerate me, we are friends.  I don't care about your choices, preferences, proclivities, I'll even talk to non-vegans.  Just don't suck as a human.  It's really not much to ask.

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9 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

I think I was pretty closed minded as a youngster.  The older I get, the less I care about how people choose to live their lives.  If you are kind, and can tolerate me, we are friends.  I don't care about your choices, preferences, proclivities, I'll even talk to non-vegans.  Just don't suck as a human.  It's really not much to ask.

When I was young, I really didn’t know that I was different from the girls. When I started pre-school, I was given a wake up call. The teachers separated the boys and girls for various activities and I was grouped with the boys. I was so out of my comfort zone.  Learned a lot about how cruel kids can really be.

 

Anyway,  life is about learning. And I agree, kindness isn’t really that hard. 

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2 minutes ago, Zealot said:

Learned a lot about how cruel kids can really be.

That isn't gender specific.  I was a class A prick, both to boys and girls.  I guess I got a laugh or two from classmates, and ran with it.  It took me decades to mature.  I have many regrets.

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3 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

That isn't gender specific.  I was a class A prick, both to boys and girls.  I guess I got a laugh or two from classmates, and ran with it.  It took me decades to mature.  I have many regrets.

You are atoning by providing us bozos a great gathering place. :)

 

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3 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

That isn't gender specific.  I was a class A prick, both to boys and girls.  I guess I got a laugh or two from classmates, and ran with it.  It took me decades to mature.  I have many regrets.

Oh, I know.  

We all live and learn, SW. We all have regrets.  But I think the person you are today is pretty awesome, from all that Ive witnessed here.  And that person exists because of and in spite of his past.  Be at peace. 

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8 minutes ago, Further said:

Zealot, talking to you and your wife was an enjoyable experience, you are both understanding, compassionate people.

I hope you find peace. 

50 some ain't that old, 20 plus years of joy ahead of you.   :nodhead:

 

  

Thanks Further. We very much enjoyed spending the evening with you as well. 

Yes, she’s a great gal and my very best friend.  None of my stuff written above was meant to reflect negatively on her or our relationship. She and I met when we were kids. She knew and fell in love with the waning feminine me.  

Peace is in the moments. Thank you. 

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