Kzoo Posted June 23, 2014 Share #51 Posted June 23, 2014 Enlighten me. What is the 'essence' of what I just said? If you can't read you own word and understand their meaning, nothing that I say is going to help you but let me just reiterate...... never does a person talk more about forgiveness than the persons who probably need to be forgiven the most for the things they did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtyhip Posted June 23, 2014 Share #52 Posted June 23, 2014 Nope. The truly icky people get removed from my life, so there is no need to forgive these losers. Move on and don't look back. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olas Nah Posted June 23, 2014 Share #53 Posted June 23, 2014 If you can't read you own word and understand their meaning, nothing that I say is going to help you but let me just reiterate...... never does a person talk more about forgiveness than the persons who probably need to be forgiven the most for the things they did I didn't start the thread you silly illiterate boob. I'm not talking about forgiving anyone or asking for forgiveness, I'm talking about the people who are. There's an actual difference there. That's the 'essence' of what I said. Stop projecting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olas Nah Posted June 23, 2014 Share #54 Posted June 23, 2014 Nope. The truly icky people get removed from my life, so there is no need to forgive these losers. Move on and don't look back. Pretty much this. If there's anyone I've burned (outside of bicycling discussion forums of course) in life, or that have burned me, I simply don't associate with the person anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted June 23, 2014 Share #55 Posted June 23, 2014 I didn't start the thread you silly illiterate boob. I'm not talking about forgiving anyone or asking for forgiveness, I'm talking about the people who are. There's an actual difference there. That's the 'essence' of what I said. Stop projecting.... You're calling me an illiterate boob when you are the one asking be to elaborate in what you said? I was just agreeing with you and you are the one needing additional clarification? To make it personal. I have been forgiven, I am happy to talk about forgiveness. Therefore I meet the essence of your original statement. Back to the OP (which you are the boob if you think I think you were the OP'er) I am also happy to forgive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destination Posted June 23, 2014 Share #56 Posted June 23, 2014 Nope. The truly icky people get removed from my life, so there is no need to forgive these losers. Move on and don't look back. At the risk of splitting hairs here, I'd suggest forgiveness is necessary in order for you to move on. It's not something you do for someone else; it's something you do for yourself. If the other person has no wish to change his or her behaviour or own up to what was done, that's a separate matter, and that's when it may be a good idea to part ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted June 23, 2014 Share #57 Posted June 23, 2014 At the risk of splitting hairs here, I'd suggest forgiveness is necessary in order for you to move on. It's not something you do for someone else; it's something you do for yourself. If the other person has no wish to change his or her behaviour or own up to what was done, that's a separate matter, and that's when it may be a good idea to part ways. I don't know, I think I am with DH for the most part, toxic people get written out. You can burn a lot of energy trying to help someone that doesn't want to be helped or doesn't have the awareness to realize they are horrible bastards. Compartmentalizing and eliminating is good for this subgroup, forgiveness (or getting past something) is for people you have to keep in your life for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted June 23, 2014 Share #58 Posted June 23, 2014 what I have noticed from the responses here is that folks who claim forgiving is not necessary, they all have two commonalities...they always speak of ending all contact with the person instead of forgiving them and in all cases they are focused on themselves and not on the other person. In fact, the other person could be replaced by a lampshade and the grammatical constructs of their reply would still hold So what I mean is that if you are so wrapped up in yourself that you can't see a purpose to forgiving, then I certainly feel sorry for you The whole point of forgiveness is not to make ourselves feel better. The point is that we can live together after we have hurt one another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olas Nah Posted June 23, 2014 Share #59 Posted June 23, 2014 what I have noticed from the responses here is that folks who claim forgiving is not necessary, they all have two commonalities...they always speak of ending all contact with the person instead of forgiving them and in all cases they are focused on themselves and not on the other person. In fact, the other person could be replaced by a lampshade and the grammatical constructs of their reply would still hold So what I mean is that if you are so wrapped up in yourself that you can't see a purpose to forgiving, then I certainly feel sorry for you The whole point of forgiveness is not to make ourselves feel better. The point is that we can live together after we have hurt one another Usually the nature of the issue is one where forgiveness can't really feature into the equation, as in, that person will do and has done this or that repeatedly and there's no changing that behavior, so it is a matter of simply learning this about the person, and then ending your contact with the person once you've figured that out. Forgiving would imply that you have some reason to keep that association going that vastly outweighs that offending issue, at which point I would say that word is improper for the situation....I call that 'putting up with that person's shit because we've got this project to do'. Very few people decide to live together after they have hurt one another, because it's functionally a bad idea. See above about 'will do and has done this repeatedly'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olas Nah Posted June 23, 2014 Share #60 Posted June 23, 2014 You're calling me an illiterate boob when you are the one asking be to elaborate in what you said? I was just agreeing with you and you are the one needing additional clarification? To make it personal. I have been forgiven, I am happy to talk about forgiveness. Therefore I meet the essence of your original statement. Back to the OP (which you are the boob if you think I think you were the OP'er) I am also happy to forgive. Who forgave you?....let me guess..... and then let me argue that you haven't... and then I'll mention that bit about self-righteousness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted June 23, 2014 Share #61 Posted June 23, 2014 what I have noticed from the responses here is that folks who claim forgiving is not necessary, they all have two commonalities...they always speak of ending all contact with the person instead of forgiving them and in all cases they are focused on themselves and not on the other person. In fact, the other person could be replaced by a lampshade and the grammatical constructs of their reply would still hold So what I mean is that if you are so wrapped up in yourself that you can't see a purpose to forgiving, then I certainly feel sorry for you The whole point of forgiveness is not to make ourselves feel better. The point is that we can live together after we have hurt one another Listen, hippie, I have had it up to 'here' with your liberal pansy-ass sensibilities. The problem with you and your middle-America Obama generation is that your ilk lack to ability to get tough and deal with problems, like the people on the coasts can. You country livestock-fornicators prefer instead to pander to the trouble makers, give everyone a gold medal, and ensure constant participation despite the foul deeds they perpetrate to the citizenry of this fine country. Seriously, by what reasoning would you decree that horrible deed-doers have a right to consistently get back into contact with people they screw over? You would allow them instead to harass, befoul, vex, and disquiet again and again, seemingly without repercussion! No, this cannot stand! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtyhip Posted June 23, 2014 Share #62 Posted June 23, 2014 I certainly feel sorry for you This comment is rude and condescending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted June 23, 2014 Share #63 Posted June 23, 2014 I can forgive a terribly half assed rant 2.6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted June 23, 2014 Share #64 Posted June 23, 2014 This comment is rude and condescending. but if you are so wrapped up in yourself that you can't see a purpose to forgiving, then I really do feel sorry for you you're free to take that however you like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted June 23, 2014 Share #65 Posted June 23, 2014 I can forgive a terribly half assed rant 2.6 It was at least a 4. I think the role-reversal was a nice touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted June 23, 2014 Share #66 Posted June 23, 2014 you're right. I'll even go 6.3 you made good use of angst 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted June 23, 2014 Share #67 Posted June 23, 2014 Thanks! I feel the bribery of the judges was a good thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share #68 Posted June 24, 2014 Nate, it's not hard to do, but the 2 people I won't forgive don't deserve my forgiveness. Bosox, that may very well be true. However, I know for my part --I don't deserve the forgiveness of some people either. If I look back, I can see a few things I have done in my life that I'd never expect anyone to forgive, and know in my heart that to be forgiven would take grace. Some of these transgressions are from people I no longer know; I can only hope they have forgiven me in their hearts. And without going into deeper detail, I still remember what I have done, and I pray for forgiveness regularly for these things. People don't need to deserve your forgiveness to be forgiven. Rather, you forgiving them allows you to let go and not let something fester, and cause rot or bitterness or anger within your own life --it allows you to heal. And should you need forgiveness, it helps sometimes to remember those you forgave. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destination Posted June 24, 2014 Share #69 Posted June 24, 2014 People don't need to deserve your forgiveness to be forgiven. Rather, you forgiving them allows you to let go and not let something fester, and cause rot or bitterness or anger within your own life --it allows you to heal. And should you need forgiveness, it helps sometimes to remember those you forgave. This is where I get stuck when people say they don't forgive; they just part ways with the offending person. How can it be possible to move on, even if on separate paths, if one has not let go of what has happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuzieQ Posted June 24, 2014 Share #70 Posted June 24, 2014 This is where I get stuck when people say they don't forgive; they just part ways with the offending person. How can it be possible to move on, even if on separate paths, if one has not let go of what has happened? I think you can let go of things that have happened and move on without forgiving. There are deeds that do not deserve forgiving! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share #71 Posted June 24, 2014 I think you can let go of things that have happened and move on without forgiving. There are deeds that do not deserve forgiving! That may be true --but in the grand scheme of things, haven't all of us done one or two deeds in our life that do not deserve forgiving? I know I'm guilty of a few more than that. And I can't go back around and fix it --I can only learn to not repeat those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destination Posted June 24, 2014 Share #72 Posted June 24, 2014 I think you can let go of things that have happened and move on without forgiving. There are deeds that do not deserve forgiving! We may be using different terms here to describe similar concepts. Forgiving is not the same as forgetting. As I stated on the first page of this thread, I see a difference between forgiving someone and continuing an association with a hurtful or destructive person wilfully continues such behaviour. Too often, forgiveness has been described as wiping the slate clean and then continuing where things had been before. In other words, it's the "forgive and forget" slogan playing itself out once again. But such a practice can do a lot of damage since problems are covered up but not resolved. As for the second sentence, I'd change it to, "There are deeds that do not deserve forgetting." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted June 24, 2014 Share #73 Posted June 24, 2014 We may be using different terms here to describe similar concepts. Forgiving is not the same as forgetting. As I stated on the first page of this thread, I see a difference between forgiving someone and continuing an association with a hurtful or destructive person wilfully continues such behaviour. Too often, forgiveness has been described as wiping the slate clean and then continuing where things had been before. In other words, it's the "forgive and forget" slogan playing itself out once again. But such a practice can do a lot of damage since problems are covered up but not resolved. As for the second sentence, I'd change it to, "There are deeds that do not deserve forgetting." Very well said BigD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted June 24, 2014 Share #74 Posted June 24, 2014 The truth is that none of us deserve forgiving that's why forgiving is an act of love....real selfless love for your fellow man We don't forgive because of what it does for us. That's where you jackanapes have it all turned around We forgive our brothers for their sake and it is never deserved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted June 24, 2014 Share #75 Posted June 24, 2014 This is where I get stuck when people say they don't forgive; they just part ways with the offending person. How can it be possible to move on, even if on separate paths, if one has not let go of what has happened? One lets go of the problem and the person in one package, as the person is the physical embodiment of the problem, and the problem is the result of the person. Screw 'em, gone, out of here. If that isn't letting go, what is? Sure you can still be pissed about something they did, and if you focus really hard on that person or problem, you are constantly reminded of that situation. Excising to tumor allows your focus to go to other things that are not all screwed up, and your brain goes all normal more quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former member Posted June 24, 2014 Share #76 Posted June 24, 2014 We don't forgive because of what it does for us. That's where you jackanapes have it all turned around We forgive our brothers for their sake and it is never deservedI don't give a fuck about those two people. If they want to be forgiven, they can ask their God for it, they'll get nothing from me, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted June 24, 2014 Share #77 Posted June 24, 2014 I don't give a fuck about those two people. If they want to be forgiven, they can ask their God for it, they'll get nothing from me, that's the spirit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former member Posted June 24, 2014 Share #78 Posted June 24, 2014 that's the spirit! Nate, did you hear about the Pope's comments on the Mafia? That doesn't sound like the forgiveness that you and other Christians here are talking about. Please don't take this as an insult or an attack, that's not at all what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted June 24, 2014 Share #79 Posted June 24, 2014 I don't give a fuck about those two people. If they want to be forgiven, they can ask their God for it, they'll get nothing from me, You obviously don't care about them or ever even think about them, otherwise you could have brought them up several times in this thread alone. But no not you. They mean nothing to you. You have moved past them............ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted June 24, 2014 Share #80 Posted June 24, 2014 Nate, did you hear about the Pope's comments on the Mafia? That doesn't sound like the forgiveness that you and other Christians here are talking about. Please don't take this as an insult or an attack, that's not at all what I'm saying. I am not Catholic and have no dog in that fight but obviously you are confusing expulsion from the church (excommunication in Catholic speak) and forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Karen_Cooper_Incident Posted June 24, 2014 Share #81 Posted June 24, 2014 You obviously don't care about them or ever even think about them, otherwise you could have brought them up several times in this thread alone. But no not you. They mean nothing to you. You have moved past them............ Couch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend_Maynard Posted June 24, 2014 Share #82 Posted June 24, 2014 I fail to see the point. Doing all that soul searching about whether or not to forgive them is renting them more space than they deserve already. Excise and move on works fine for me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former member Posted June 24, 2014 Share #83 Posted June 24, 2014 I am not Catholic and have no dog in that fight but obviously you are confusing expulsion from the church (excommunication in Catholic speak) and forgiveness.that us absolutely not what I was talking about, but you seem to think you know what I was thinking, so please continue. I'll explain my thoughts after you are through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Karen_Cooper_Incident Posted June 24, 2014 Share #84 Posted June 24, 2014 I fail to see the point. Doing all that soul searching about whether or not to forgive them is renting them more space than they deserve already. Excise and move on works fine for me. Pretty much. But, that would kill the victim role for some. Couch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted June 24, 2014 Share #85 Posted June 24, 2014 that us absolutely not what I was talking about, but you seem to think you know what I was thinking, so please continue. I'll explain my thoughts after you are through. We are discussing forgiveness and you brought up the Pope's actions as an example of forgiveness in the Catholic church. I don't think it's a case of me deciphering your thoughts. If I miss represented your words maybe you can restate them so we are all better informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted June 24, 2014 Share #86 Posted June 24, 2014 bosox, no, I didn't hear what Pope Francis said about the mafia, so I can't really comment on that except to say that he's probably right in whatever it was he said. On another note...I keep hearing you folks talking about "deserve" nobody deserves forgiveness, that is the beauty of the act of forgiving you are still too focused on yourselves. Forgiveness is an act of fraternity and charity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destination Posted June 24, 2014 Share #87 Posted June 24, 2014 One lets go of the problem and the person in one package, as the person is the physical embodiment of the problem, and the problem is the result of the person. Screw 'em, gone, out of here. If that isn't letting go, what is? Sure you can still be pissed about something they did, and if you focus really hard on that person or problem, you are constantly reminded of that situation. Excising to tumor allows your focus to go to other things that are not all screwed up, and your brain goes all normal more quickly. I understand what you're saying, Randomguy, and I can appreciate it. Where we differ is that I don't want to close the door to reconciliation in the future. Achieving that reconciliation, even decades later, would mean much. But I can't make it happen on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former member Posted June 24, 2014 Share #88 Posted June 24, 2014 We are discussing forgiveness and you brought up the Pope's actions as an example of forgiveness in the Catholic church. I don't think it's a case of me deciphering your thoughts. If I miss represented your words maybe you can restate them so we are all better informed.I was asking Nate a question. I wanted HIS thoughts on what the Pope said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted June 24, 2014 Share #89 Posted June 24, 2014 I was asking Nate a question. I wanted HIS thoughts on what the Pope said. Sorry, I'll leave your personal thread alone. Kzoo out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted June 24, 2014 Share #90 Posted June 24, 2014 You guys think too much about forgiveness, like you really want everybody to forgive all manner of bs in all occasions. The non-forgivers seem more able to adapt and move on without some sort of happy feel-good moment of realization or somesuch, whereas the forgivers will forever be mired with the problems of the dregs of society (inconsiderate piss-mongerers) Redemption is nice and all, but requires involvement in the self and the rational mind, rather than waving a hand in the air or a fart in a general direction and an incantation of general all-goodness. Phooey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted June 24, 2014 Share #91 Posted June 24, 2014 I understand what you're saying, Randomguy, and I can appreciate it. that's interesting...I've never actually seen those words put in that particular order before 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted June 24, 2014 Share #92 Posted June 24, 2014 I understand what you're saying, Randomguy, and I can appreciate it. Where we differ is that I don't want to close the door to reconciliation in the future. Achieving that reconciliation, even decades later, would mean much. But I can't make it happen on my own. I still think most of this is different languages. Reconciliation is different, and can happen to different people. Time makes us different, as does new information.. Rehabilitation of offending behaviorisms must take place for forging different relationships. I still think you are better off cutting out that which continually offends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destination Posted June 24, 2014 Share #93 Posted June 24, 2014 Redemption is nice and all, but requires involvement in the self and the rational mind, rather than waving a hand in the air or a fart in a general direction and an incantation of general all-goodness. Phooey. If you substitute the word "reconciliation" for "redemption," you and I are saying the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted June 24, 2014 Share #94 Posted June 24, 2014 that's interesting...I've never actually seen those words put in that particular order before He was just humoring me, as I am generally most unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted June 24, 2014 Share #95 Posted June 24, 2014 you clowns don't seem to understand the first thing about forgiveness you don't forgive someone for YOUR benefit forgiveness is a selfless act 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted June 24, 2014 Share #96 Posted June 24, 2014 you clowns don't seem to understand the first thing about forgiveness you don't forgive someone for YOUR benefit forgiveness is a selfless act Didn't you say the exact opposite earlier? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtyhip Posted June 24, 2014 Share #97 Posted June 24, 2014 Didn't you say the exact opposite earlier? haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted June 24, 2014 Share #98 Posted June 24, 2014 no, you understood the exact opposite. That's been going on all through the thread ....and I forgive the hippy for her schadenfreude 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtermite Posted June 24, 2014 Share #99 Posted June 24, 2014 Didn't you say the exact opposite earlier? Nate saying one thing, then the opposite? That's a first. A shocker. Real shocker, I tell you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend_Maynard Posted June 24, 2014 Share #100 Posted June 24, 2014 If forgiveness is not for me but for the transgressor, why should I care about it in the slightest? They can go fuck themselves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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