Wilbur ★ Posted January 28, 2020 Share #51 Posted January 28, 2020 12 minutes ago, donkpow said: The advantage in a flu shot that does not target the current virus is in the fact that the inoculation will prepare the body to fight viruses in general. Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur ★ Posted January 28, 2020 Share #52 Posted January 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Mr. Silly said: Just like with antibiotics, the disadvantage is over use of antiviral medications can result in resistant strains of the virus. Flu shots are not anti-viral medications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Silly Posted January 28, 2020 Share #53 Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Wilbur said: Flu shots are not anti-viral medications. The flu, by definition, is a virus. Since influenza is caused by a virus, antibiotics have no effect on the infection; unless prescribed for secondary infections such as bacterial pneumonia. Antiviral medication may be effective, if given early (within 48 hours to first symptoms), but some strains of influenza can show resistance to the standard antiviral drugs and there is concern about the quality of the research.[152] High-risk individuals such as young children, pregnant women, the elderly, and those with compromised immune systems should visit the doctor for antiviral drugs. Those with the emergency warning signs should visit the emergency room at once.[40] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted January 28, 2020 Share #54 Posted January 28, 2020 23 minutes ago, Mr. Silly said: Just like with antibiotics, the disadvantage is over use of antiviral medications can result in resistant strains of the virus. Not in this case. Antibiotics target and destroy bacteria. Flu immunization shots encourage the body to create antibodies that will fight viral infections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted January 28, 2020 Share #55 Posted January 28, 2020 Did they have temporal scanners in use on the passenger ships returning from Europe and the war in 1918? Maybe Ralph remembers? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur ★ Posted January 28, 2020 Share #56 Posted January 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, Mr. Silly said: The flu, by definition, is a virus. Since influenza is caused by a virus, antibiotics have no effect on the infection; unless prescribed for secondary infections such as bacterial pneumonia. Antiviral medication may be effective, if given early (within 48 hours to first symptoms), but some strains of influenza can show resistance to the standard antiviral drugs and there is concern about the quality of the research.[152] High-risk individuals such as young children, pregnant women, the elderly, and those with compromised immune systems should visit the doctor for antiviral drugs. Those with the emergency warning signs should visit the emergency room at once.[40] Of course it is. But I don't mind telling you, you are 100% incorrect in suggesting flu vaccines are an anti-viral drug. They have zero proven effect in rendering a flu strain "resistant". They simply introduce a deactivated virus that your body destroys and learns to recognize as a threat for future attacks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Silly Posted January 28, 2020 Share #57 Posted January 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, donkpow said: Not in this case. Antibiotics target and destroy bacteria. Flu immunization shots encourage the body to create antibodies that will fight viral infections. It depends on how the virus evolves. New influenza viruses are constantly evolving by mutation or by reassortment.[52] Mutations can cause small changes in the hemagglutinin and neuraminidase antigens on the surface of the virus. This is called antigenic drift, which slowly creates an increasing variety of strains until one evolves that can infect people who are immune to the pre-existing strains. This new variant then replaces the older strains as it rapidly sweeps through the human population, often causing an epidemic.[189] However, since the strains produced by drift will still be reasonably similar to the older strains, some people will still be immune to them. In contrast, when influenza viruses reassort, they acquire completely new antigens—for example by reassortment between avian strains and human strains; this is called antigenic shift. If a human influenza virus is produced that has entirely new antigens, everybody will be susceptible, and the novel influenza will spread uncontrollably, causing a pandemic.[190] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted January 28, 2020 Share #58 Posted January 28, 2020 On 11/30/2019 at 10:41 AM, Road Runner said: The epidemic of 1918 was a direct result of sending so many young men overseas during WWI. They picked up flu viruses that were strange to people in the US and for which they had little or no immunity. With so many people traveling all over the world these days, it is unlikely that a similar event would occur. Sort of true, but a bit more nuanced. It was the US-spawned flu in the US getting concentrated and spread at US military camps and then being spread to the US population before being spread to the US troops in Europe (via resupply from the US camps) and then continued spread in both Europe and the US via the military moving so many people around. On 11/30/2019 at 10:50 AM, Road Runner said: I forget the numbers, but IIRC, it seems like more people died in the 1918 epidemic than from all wars the US has ever fought. Yeah more Americans were killed in the 1918 epidemic (~575k folks) than all Americans killed in the wars of the 20th century (especially if using "combat" deaths and deducting the flu deaths - ~50k - from the war totals). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted January 28, 2020 Share #59 Posted January 28, 2020 29 minutes ago, Kzoo said: Did they have temporal scanners in use on the passenger ships returning from Europe and the war in 1918? Maybe Ralph remembers? To look at them before they left in 1917? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted January 28, 2020 Share #60 Posted January 28, 2020 20 minutes ago, Mr. Silly said: It depends on how the virus evolves. While it is true that the inoculant created to fight a specific virus will not be fully effective in fighting a different or evolved virus, the body is still better prepared to fight a virus as the result of the flu vaccine. It can help the body fight the common cold, rhinovirus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffJim Posted January 28, 2020 Share #61 Posted January 28, 2020 31 minutes ago, Razors Edge said: Sort of true, but a bit more nuanced. It was the US-spawned flu in the US getting concentrated and spread at US military camps and then being spread to the US population before being spread to the US troops in Europe (via resupply from the US camps) and then continued spread in both Europe and the US via the military moving so many people around. Yeah more Americans were killed in the 1918 epidemic (~575k folks) than all Americans killed in the wars of the 20th century (especially if using "combat" deaths and deducting the flu deaths - ~50k - from the war totals). This is the theory espoused by many. It should have been named the Kansas Flu https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/journal-plague-year-180965222/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted January 28, 2020 Share #62 Posted January 28, 2020 1 hour ago, donkpow said: Wasn't this thread a spin off of the 'all penises are dirty' thread? Just wash your dick-hands, ok? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted January 28, 2020 Share #63 Posted January 28, 2020 1 hour ago, donkpow said: The advantage in a flu shot that does not target the current virus is in the fact that the inoculation will prepare the body to fight viruses in general. I don’t think that is true, my understanding is that it only helps with a few very particular strains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted January 28, 2020 Share #64 Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Randomguy said: I don’t think that is true, my understanding is that it only helps with a few very particular strains. I believe I haven't made my point clear. The flu vaccine is an inoculation against a specific set of viruses that are expected to create flu in the population in any given year. Even if the inoculant is not specifically targeting a specific set of viruses, the human body will create antibodies that will fight viruses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophet Zacharia Posted January 28, 2020 Share #65 Posted January 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Mr. Silly said: Just like with antibiotics, the disadvantage is over use of antiviral medications can result in resistant strains of the virus. Unlike antibiotics and bacteria, a virus never interacts with the vaccine, so it doesn’t mutate in response to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickinMD ★ Posted January 28, 2020 Share #66 Posted January 28, 2020 I'm sure it could repeat because of the lack of people with pneumonia vaccinations. An NIH research article says: The postmortem samples we examined from people who died of influenza during 1918–1919 uniformly exhibited severe changes indicative of bacterial pneumonia....The majority of deaths in the 1918–1919 influenza pandemic likely resulted directly from secondary bacterial pneumonia caused by common upper respiratory–tract bacteria. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2599911/ The vast majority of the 36,000 Americans who are listed as dying of the flu each year actually die from pneumonia caught by the weakened body. I guess the Center for Disease Control inflates the flu numbers in an attempt to scare more people into getting flu shots - as they should - but it has reached the point where if you catch the flu, step into a street, get hit by a bus and killed, you'll be listed as having died from the flu. That's why I'm amazed there isn't as big a push to get the bacterial pneumonia shot as the flu shot! Depending on the type of vaccine, you need only one pneumonia shot in your life or two spaced 5 years apart that work for life. The shot protects you from nearly 100% of the types of bacteria that cause pneumonia. I get the flu shot(s) every year and that provides a little peace of mind, but not as much as the fact I got my pneumonia shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted March 3, 2020 Share #67 Posted March 3, 2020 On 11/30/2019 at 10:37 AM, Randomguy said: Theoretically, it is a virtual certainty that a pandemic will run through large swathes of the population at some point, at least according to science. Wash your hands, people. I'm starting to think someone somewhere wasn't following RG's sage advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephyr Posted March 3, 2020 Share #68 Posted March 3, 2020 On 11/30/2019 at 7:39 AM, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: I always want to throttle people I see walking oot of the restroom withoot washing their hands. Two points I want to make.... a) I don't piss on my hands 2) My dick is clean. I wash it with soap. iii) A lot. Yes me too truthfully. I am one of the guys that I hang onto the paper towel to pull open the bathroom door there are so many "just held a dick now touching this door" hands pulling it open. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted March 3, 2020 Share #69 Posted March 3, 2020 Just now, Zephyr said: Yes me too truthfully. I am one of the guys that I hang onto the paper towel to pull open the bathroom door there are so many "just held a dick now touching this door" hands pulling it open. People who don't do that are DISGUSTING! Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted March 3, 2020 Share #70 Posted March 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Zephyr said: Two points I want to make.... a) I don't piss on my hands 2) My dick is clean. I wash it with soap. iii) A lot. Yes me too truthfully. I am one of the guys that I hang onto the paper towel to pull open the bathroom door there are so many "just held a dick now touching this door" hands pulling it open. ...however you numbered those, there are three points there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted March 3, 2020 Share #71 Posted March 3, 2020 On 11/30/2019 at 9:39 AM, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: I always want to throttle people I see walking oot of the restroom withoot washing their hands. Like Poppy the restaurant chef/owner on Seinfeld. I always thought it was Papi. Turns oot we were both wronge. It is Poppie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted March 3, 2020 Share #72 Posted March 3, 2020 On 1/28/2020 at 7:19 AM, donkpow said: While it is true that the inoculant created to fight a specific virus will not be fully effective in fighting a different or evolved virus, the body is still better prepared to fight a virus as the result of the flu vaccine. It can help the body fight the common cold, rhinovirus. ...this is based on the idea that the human immune system needs constant exercise to develop fully and remain effective in protecting us. Which does appear to be true. But honestly speaking dick hands does the same thing at a much cheaper cost and you don't need to make an appointment or stand in line to get immunity challenged by other peoples' dick hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted March 3, 2020 Share #73 Posted March 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Page Turner said: ...this is based on the idea that the human immune system needs constant exercise to develop fully and remain effective in protecting us. Which does appear to be true. But honestly speaking dick hands does the same thing at a much cheaper cost and you don't need to make an appointment or stand in line to get immunity challenged by other peoples' dick hands. In which case, you would likely advocate for treatment rather than inoculation. Most of the time, that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephyr Posted March 3, 2020 Share #74 Posted March 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Page Turner said: ...however you numbered those, there are three points there. That is part of the joke..., plus the points were labeled a), 2) and iii) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dottleshead ★ Posted March 3, 2020 Share #75 Posted March 3, 2020 On 1/28/2020 at 6:22 AM, Mr. Silly said: Just like with antibiotics, the disadvantage is over use of antiviral medications can result in resistant strains of the virus. They can but a virus can be eradicated too. But I suspect you're right also. It's a game science will enjoy playing with nature until the end of times. There's always some new strain. It's nature's way of keeping things in check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted March 3, 2020 Share #76 Posted March 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, Zephyr said: That is part of the joke..., plus the points were labeled a), 2) and iii) ...everybody needs a straight man. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Wheels Posted March 4, 2020 Share #77 Posted March 4, 2020 14 hours ago, Zephyr said: That is part of the joke..., plus the points were labeled a), 2) and iii) Click and Clack were famous for that. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted April 3, 2020 Share #78 Posted April 3, 2020 On 11/30/2019 at 6:34 PM, 2Far said: I had a great grandfather by marriage who died in the 1918 outbreak. I just learned that my great grandmother died of it in 1918. My mom never met her. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted April 3, 2020 Share #79 Posted April 3, 2020 Do you think folks continued to compare the Spanish flu to the "regular" flu as it spread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted April 3, 2020 Share #80 Posted April 3, 2020 On 11/30/2019 at 6:31 PM, Further said: AIDS came pretty damn close Not Even Close Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted April 3, 2020 Share #81 Posted April 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, Kzoo said: Not Even Close Yeah. That flu spread to a LOT of folks! The Spanish flu (also known as the 1918 flu pandemic[2]) was an unusually deadly influenza pandemic. Lasting from January 1918 to December 1920, it infected 500 million people – about a quarter of the world's population at the time.[1] The death toll is estimated to have been anywhere from 17 million[3] to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, making it one of the deadliest pandemics in human history.[4][5] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted April 3, 2020 Share #82 Posted April 3, 2020 Wow. I just re read this entire thread. What a difference 4 months can make. 4 months ago this was an intellectual exercise that most considered couldn't happen. Today.........you can't go to the store without worrying about picking something up that could kill you. I guess that explains the known unknowns and the unknown knowns. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted April 3, 2020 Share #83 Posted April 3, 2020 On 3/3/2020 at 11:04 AM, Zephyr said: Two points I want to make.... a) I piss on my hands b) A lot. Hmm... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted April 3, 2020 Share #84 Posted April 3, 2020 On 11/30/2019 at 11:33 AM, Randomguy said: The report found that, in addition to being airborne, a pathogen with the potential to cause a global pandemic disaster would likely have the following traits: It would be contagious during the "incubation period," before people show any symptoms, or when people have only mild symptoms. It would be a microbe that most people are not immune to, so there would be a large population of susceptible human hosts. It wouldn't have an existing treatment or prevention method. It would have a "low but significant" fatality rate. Although the final trait may sound surprising, Adalja noted that a pathogen doesn't have to have a high fatality rate, or kill the majority of people infected, to cause majority societal disruptions. "It just has to make a lot of people sick," he told Live Science. (A pathogen with a high fatality rate could kill too many people too quickly, and therefore run out of "hosts" to spread further, the report noted.) Indeed, the infamous "Spanish" influenza pandemic of 1918 had a fatality rate of just 2.5 percent, but because it infected hundreds of millions of people, it caused an estimated 50 million deaths, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In addition, according to something called the "host density threshold theorem" a virus that kills too many people will "run out of susceptible hosts and be extinguished," the report said. The report also found that a group of viruses known as RNA viruses have the most potential to cause a global pandemic disaster, in part because these viruses mutate more easily than other types do. This group includes well-known viruses such as the flu (influenza) and SARS, but also common cold viruses, such as enteroviruses and rhinoviruses, as well as respiratory syncytial virus. While the flu has received a lot of attention for its ability to cause pandemics, many other viruses in this group have not. There's "a whole host of viral families that get very little attention when it comes to pandemic preparedness," Adalja said. Historically, authorities have prepared for pandemics by focusing on a list of "usual suspects" — diseases that have caused outbreaks in the past, such as the flu and SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome), or those that could be used as biological weapons. But this approach doesn't account for pathogens that aren't currently known or haven't historically caused outbreaks, the researchers said. HOLD ON! How the heck did YOU and ONLY YOU know this sort of thing could happen??? Especially back in November? WHY DIDN'T YOU SOUND THE ALARM!!!!! Nobody saw this coming. Nobody thought it could be this bad. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted April 3, 2020 Share #85 Posted April 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Razors Edge said: HOLD ON! How the heck did YOU and ONLY YOU know this sort of thing could happen??? Especially back in November? "I am a very stable genius, and scientist are in awed by how much I know". Truthfully, I wrote a couple of papers in college about the bubonic plague, and that got me interested in some pandemic knowledge. Particularly that of one particular bottleneck in human history where we went down from some millions in population to less than, supposedly, 10,000 individuals at most (this may not have been from pandemic, jury is out). I have a very generalized interest in odd things, too, and I like to extrapolate stuff. I guessed right for once. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted April 4, 2020 Share #86 Posted April 4, 2020 Holy crap! This thread was eye opening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickinMD ★ Posted April 4, 2020 Share #87 Posted April 4, 2020 An unusual, virulent flu could happen again because it wouldn't be among the 4 strains (3 in high-dose senior) the vaccines protect against. Of course the VAST majority of flu deaths, and maybe also COVID-19 deaths, result from bodies weakened by the virus catching bacterial pneumonia and dying from the pneumonia. It's been estimated from detailed 1918-19 postmortem records that over 50% of the deaths from the Spanish Flu would not have occurred if everyone had the currently available pneumonia vaccine. You only need one or, at most, two shots 5 years apart to protect you from virtually 100% of the bacteria that cause pneumonia. But, 40% of Americans don't get the flu shot each year due to belief, ignorance, misinformation, or cost and probably most don't get the pneumonia shot so, yeah, a Spanish Flu can hit here - probably more likely in America than in nations with universal healthcare where a higher percentage are immunized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted April 4, 2020 Share #88 Posted April 4, 2020 35 minutes ago, MickinMD said: 40% of Americans don't get the flu shot each year due to belief, ignorance, misinformation, or cost Or the fact that it is mostly ineffective and gives some individuals severe flu-like symptoms for a week or so. If it worked and didn't come with severe side effects I would get it, but it is only the ignorant that believe the shot is even 50% effective in most years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted April 4, 2020 Share #89 Posted April 4, 2020 59 minutes ago, MickinMD said: 40% of Americans don't get the flu shot each year due to belief, ignorance, misinformation, or cos That statement seems..... well....... rather arrogant. You have no idea why people like me have never gotten a flu shot. And based on your 40% number you don’t understand how general population immunization rates effect pandemics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted April 4, 2020 Share #90 Posted April 4, 2020 On 11/30/2019 at 9:36 AM, Airehead said: Could it happen again? Ahh, Airehead, you are the oracle of Rochester. I was giving RG credit for foreseeing this all when he added that in a post in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted April 5, 2020 Share #91 Posted April 5, 2020 23 hours ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: Holy crap! This thread was eye opening! Yeah, who new RG WASN'T full of shit?!?!? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted April 5, 2020 Share #92 Posted April 5, 2020 10 hours ago, Randomguy said: Or the fact that it is mostly ineffective and gives some individuals severe flu-like symptoms for a week or so. If it worked and didn't come with severe side effects I would get it, but it is only the ignorant that believe the shot is even 50% effective in most years. Wouldn't you rather have a 50% chance than a potentially fatal disease? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dottleshead ★ Posted April 5, 2020 Share #93 Posted April 5, 2020 On 11/30/2019 at 6:36 AM, Airehead said: Could it happen again? Yes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted April 5, 2020 Share #94 Posted April 5, 2020 On 4/3/2020 at 5:40 PM, Randomguy said: I guessed right for once. Yes you did. So, can you guess how this will end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted July 13, 2022 Share #95 Posted July 13, 2022 On 4/4/2020 at 8:54 PM, Bikeguy said: So, can you guess how this will end? It looks like we blew our chance to isolate it away or vaccinate it away or herd-immunity it away since it is changing so much. Maybe if it were more fatal, people would have isolated better and got the shots in a more timely manner for it to make more of a difference, and the folks that didn't think enough or care enough or were advised poorly would have just expired from it, sad as that is. I think we have it from here on out, plus more down the road from different pandemic routes. We are stuck with this one for now, though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted July 14, 2022 Share #96 Posted July 14, 2022 8 hours ago, Randomguy said: It looks like we blew our chance to isolate it away or vaccinate it away That always was wishful thinking. Still is... Elimination of a virus by vaccination is RARE. link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted July 14, 2022 Share #97 Posted July 14, 2022 2 hours ago, Bikeguy said: That always was wishful thinking. Still is... Elimination of a virus by vaccination is RARE. link Well, total eradication may be rare, but nobody on this forum got polio or a bunch of other nearly but not quite eradicated diseases. If we were of previous generations, some of us would have certainly been victims. Funny how some antivaxxers that did all they could to stop children from getting those particular vaccinations in parts of the world and now some of those diseases have returned somewhat (except in the people who are vaccinated). Maybe it was all wishful thinking, but all the dumbassery, denial, and hoaxterism cost hundreds of thousands of gullible folks needless deaths and long covid, and brought their families untold misery. I still have a bit of wishful thinking that advancements in microchipping vaccination research and science may one day be able to overcome the virus and variants, and critical thinking can overcome the resistance of those who couldn't previously see reason. Well, I have hope in the first part, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted July 14, 2022 Share #98 Posted July 14, 2022 On 11/30/2019 at 11:01 AM, Randomguy said: The CDC says it is a virtual lock that some pandemic will significantly affect human population worldwide at some point. RG Nostradamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickinMD ★ Posted July 14, 2022 Share #99 Posted July 14, 2022 On 11/30/2019 at 9:36 AM, Airehead said: Could it happen again? I read a Johns Hopkins review of studies of the 1918 Flu Pandemic that had analyzed preserved tissue samples from then. A surprising conclusion was that if everyone in 1918-19 had a bacterial pneumonia vaccination, less than HALF the Spanish Flu death toll would have occurred! Look at the CDC annual tables and you'll see that there are fewer deaths listed under "flu" than "flu plus pneumonia." You only need one or two shots, depending on which vaccine, to protect you for life from 100% of the bacteria known to cause pneumonia and fluid buildup in the lungs. There is also viral pneumonia from which the shots don't protect you, but it occurs much less often. I'm vaccinated for pneumonia and can't understand why that vaccine isn't urged and promoted as much as the flu shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Further Posted July 14, 2022 Share #100 Posted July 14, 2022 http://assets.amuniversal.com/aca5a5b03ca501349b27005056a9545d 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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