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Dottleshead

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On 2/23/2020 at 1:27 AM, Dottles said:

Well I just need to get the car healthy to unload it -- which I will. But I don't have as big of angst as I just bought a new Hybrid RAV4. My wife and I couldn't be happier. For now we put down a non-refundable fee to have them transfer it our dealership. We pick it up next Saturday.

Couldn't dump it on the Toyota dealer? Or CarMax?

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1 hour ago, Dottles said:

I know that most of you know but it's a good reminder that the oil light dashboard indicator is a pressure gauge and not a float in measuring when your oil is low. Thus oil lights only come on when the pressure is high or low. So it's a good idea to check your oil levels as Max mentions anyway. It's easy and adds extra security.

Not to mention that the oil in your engine is it's principal means of cooling, not the water, is a good reason to maintain the proper volume of oil in the engine so that it has time to cool in the oil pan and keep your engine from overheating.

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Just now, Dottles said:

It's gotta hurt when a guy like Pete Carroll continues roll every year into the playoffs while your team sits at home squabbling for higher contracts.

Like Pete Carroll is not Pete Carroll....  think about that.

We now the Packers coach here, so we will continue to be mediocre at best.

Is your Rav4 Hybrid Blue and Silver per chance?

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1 minute ago, jsharr said:


Is your Rav4 Hybrid Blue and Silver per chance?

I will ask as part of negotiations to include a star on the back near my exhaust. It's going to look like an anus. That should draw a crowd. I'll drive 'em down to Richardson, TX and tell 'em your available. Bean chilli for everyone.

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On 2/21/2020 at 10:07 AM, Razors Edge said:

I feel bad for my car :(  I did an annual oil change a week ago.  For whatever insane reason, they still think 3k miles is a proper duration, but who follows that nonsense????

I think Hyundai has a good reputation for standing by their cars and the warranty.

I also saw the hybrid Rav4 was Motorweek's compact SUV choice again this year. Hard to beat it, and progressively better styling as it ages.

I get a kick out of the plastic, removable sticker they put on the inside of my windshield after All Tune and Lube changes my oil.  It has a 3-month date for my next oil change.  I change my oil about once a year when my Honda Fit's dashboard tells me I have 15% or less oil life left.

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1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

Not to mention that the oil in your engine is it's principal means of cooling, not the water, is a good reason to maintain the proper volume of oil in the engine so that it has time to cool in the oil pan and keep your engine from overheating.

?

discuss, please.  That makes no sense to me.

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13 minutes ago, 12string said:

I think he's referring to airplanes and motorcycles, maybe.

The oil eliminates friction - heat (we all know that) and just as importantly is at the point or source of the heat and travels away from the friction as more oil is applied - carrying with it heat from the source.  The anti-freeze/water cools the metal around those parts causing the friction but not the parts themselves.

 

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Just now, Kzoo said:

The oil eliminates friction - heat (we all know that) and just as importantly is at the point or source of the heat and travels away from the friction as more oil is applied - carrying with it heat from the source.  The anti-freeze/water cools the metal around those parts causing the friction but not the parts themselves.

 

This a great explanation (especially if true). All heat tries to reach equilibrium. I'm guessing it travels through liquid faster?

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8 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

The anti-freeze/water cools the metal around those parts

which cools those parts far more efficiently than oil.  Oil is much worse than water and metal at transferring heat. Oil contributes to the cooling, but water is the primary means of controlling engine temperature.  Even when there's an oil cooler, it's oil->water->air cooling.  At least that's how I've always understood it.

If nothing else, compare your oil and water temp gauges

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50 minutes ago, 12string said:

?

discuss, please.  That makes no sense to me.

Everyone knows that oil lubricates things inside an engine. But it does a lot more than that. And here to give us some tips: Lyndon Abel, General Manager of Patriot Harley-Davidson in Fairfax, Virginia. Lyndon, welcome back to the show.

LYNDON ABEL: Thanks for having me, Pat.

PAT GOSS: Alright. Oil lubricates, but does a lot more.

LYNDON: Absolutely. It does four things. Everybody knows it lubricates. It also cleans, prevents corrosion, and it cools. And a lot of people don’t think about this. But oil is a very important part of the cooling of any engine, especially so with an air-cooled engine. But really any engine. That oil is circulating near the combustion chamber, carrying a lot of that heat that’s generated by combustion, back into an oil tank where it can syphon through and dissipate some of that heat into the atmosphere.

https://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_garage/keep_it_cool_and_clean

It doesn't seem to be the common fact that it should be.  An example for you.  A funny car engine has no radiator and there is no water in the block.  Oil is it's primary cooling which is one reason that they carry so much oil in an external tank.

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I had a 92 Saab 9-3 that broke a belt on the way home from work.  Actually melted in place on a bad idler pulley bearing when I stopped at HD.  I came out of the store and had on power steering.  This belt also an the water pump and the alternator.  I thought - Hey it's only 15 miles - how bad can it be.  So I headed home.  I caught a couple red lights right and shut the car off at one I missed.  I kept one eye firmly planted on the temp gauge.  It rose to just under the overheat mark and stayed there.  It wasn't because water was cooling the engine.  I figured that as soon as it went too high I was going to pull over and wait... I never had to.  My mechanic promised to change the belt the next morning so I turned around and drove it another 15 mines to his shop before heading on to work with a new belt.  Neither drive did the engine overheat with no coolant flowing.  Saab made great products before GM got their hands on them. 

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CONDUCTION:

Conduction occurs when two object at different temperatures are in contact with each other. Heat flows from the warmer to the cooler object until they are both at the same temperature. Conduction is the movement of heat through a substance by the collision of molecules. At the place where the two object touch, the faster-moving molecules of the warmer object collide with the slower moving molecules of the cooler object. As they collide, the faster molecules give up some of their energy to the slower molecules. The slower molecules gain more thermal energy and collide with other molecules in the cooler object. This process continues until heat energy from the warmer object spreads throughout the cooler object. Some substances conduct heat more easily than others. Solids are better conductor than liquids and liquids are better conductor than gases. Metals are very good conductors of heat, while air is very poor conductor of heat. You experience heat transfer by conduction whenever you touch something that is hotter or colder than your skin e.g. when you wash your hands in warm or cold water.

CONVECTION:

In liquids and gases, convection is usually the most efficient way to transfer heat. Convection occurs when warmer areas of a liquid or gas rise to cooler areas in the liquid or gas. As this happens, cooler liquid or gas takes the place of the warmer areas which have risen higher. This cycle results in a continuous circulation pattern and heat is transferred to cooler areas. You see convection when you boil water in a pan. The bubbles of water that rise are the hotter parts of the water rising to the cooler area of water at the top of the pan. You have probably heard the expression "Hot air rises and cool air falls to take its place" - this is a description of convection in our atmosphere. Heat energy is transferred by the circulation of the air.

 

 

So it would seem based on what @Kzoo said that heat is generated by the combustion of the gas in the pistons and some of that energy is transferred to the lubrication via conduction.  And as that oil circulates out to the filter, heat escapes into the atmosphere via convection.  Do I have that right?

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1 minute ago, Dottles said:
CONDUCTION:

Conduction occurs when two object at different temperatures are in contact with each other. Heat flows from the warmer to the cooler object until they are both at the same temperature. Conduction is the movement of heat through a substance by the collision of molecules. At the place where the two object touch, the faster-moving molecules of the warmer object collide with the slower moving molecules of the cooler object. As they collide, the faster molecules give up some of their energy to the slower molecules. The slower molecules gain more thermal energy and collide with other molecules in the cooler object. This process continues until heat energy from the warmer object spreads throughout the cooler object. Some substances conduct heat more easily than others. Solids are better conductor than liquids and liquids are better conductor than gases. Metals are very good conductors of heat, while air is very poor conductor of heat. You experience heat transfer by conduction whenever you touch something that is hotter or colder than your skin e.g. when you wash your hands in warm or cold water.

CONVECTION:

In liquids and gases, convection is usually the most efficient way to transfer heat. Convection occurs when warmer areas of a liquid or gas rise to cooler areas in the liquid or gas. As this happens, cooler liquid or gas takes the place of the warmer areas which have risen higher. This cycle results in a continuous circulation pattern and heat is transferred to cooler areas. You see convection when you boil water in a pan. The bubbles of water that rise are the hotter parts of the water rising to the cooler area of water at the top of the pan. You have probably heard the expression "Hot air rises and cool air falls to take its place" - this is a description of convection in our atmosphere. Heat energy is transferred by the circulation of the air.

 

 

So it would seem based on what @Kzoo said that heat is generated by the combustion of the gas in the pistons and some of that energy is transferred to the lubrication via conduction.  And as that oil circulates out to the filter, heat escapes into the atmosphere via convection.  Do I have that right?

TL/DR

Kzoo is always right.  Noob breath can confirm that.

 

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24 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Everyone knows that oil lubricates things inside an engine. But it does a lot more than that. And here to give us some tips: Lyndon Abel, General Manager of Patriot Harley-Davidson in Fairfax, Virginia. Lyndon, welcome back to the show.

LYNDON ABEL: Thanks for having me, Pat.

PAT GOSS: Alright. Oil lubricates, but does a lot more.

LYNDON: Absolutely. It does four things. Everybody knows it lubricates. It also cleans, prevents corrosion, and it cools. And a lot of people don’t think about this. But oil is a very important part of the cooling of any engine, especially so with an air-cooled engine. But really any engine. That oil is circulating near the combustion chamber, carrying a lot of that heat that’s generated by combustion, back into an oil tank where it can syphon through and dissipate some of that heat into the atmosphere.

https://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_garage/keep_it_cool_and_clean

It doesn't seem to be the common fact that it should be.  An example for you.  A funny car engine has no radiator and there is no water in the block.  Oil is it's primary cooling which is one reason that they carry so much oil in an external tank.

Nice.  I like the part where they state it's important to keep an automobile engine exterior clean.  It makes sense but I just never thought of doing it for that reason.  

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8 minutes ago, Dottles said:

Probably too much for you to comprehend anyway.  :runcirclsmiley:

Yeah,  Having spent 10 years in engineering in the heating element industry designing commercial and industrial heating solutions for some of the largest organizations in the US, I don't understand the difference between convection and conduction.  I could also never understand things like heat transfer properties, viscosity, flow rates, ambient temperatures....  Too much for me.

 

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4 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Yeah,  Having spent 10 years in engineering in the heating element industry designing commercial and industrial heating solutions for some of the largest organizations in the US, I don't understand the difference between convection and conduction.  I could also never understand things like heat transfer properties, viscosity, flow rates, ambient temperatures....  Too much for me.

 

This was your best comeback ever!  POTD.

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So I just got a call from my mechanic.  He found the source of the brake issue and it turns out I don't need to replace the master brake cylinder after all.  There was a rivet obfuscated that was coming in contact with the piston (I have to google this).  I'll learn more when I see him later this evening.  But that's $300 I don't have to pay out.  Woot!  

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5 hours ago, Dottles said:

It's easy to dismiss it though because they are now telling me the new RAV4 hybrid only needs oil replacing every 10,000 miles. 

I still check the oil my cars, new or old, just about every time I buy gas.    Don't wait until 10,000 miles. 

You probably have free maintenance for a while from Toyota which is scheduled for every 5,000 miles.

 

On 2/23/2020 at 7:51 AM, maddmaxx said:

New cars should always be checked till they prove that they are "good". 

This is still true...   

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44 minutes ago, Dottles said:

So I just got a call from my mechanic.  He found the source of the brake issue and it turns out I don't need to replace the master brake cylinder after all.  There was a rivet obfuscated that was coming in contact with the piston (I have to google this).  I'll learn more when I see him later this evening.  But that's $300 I don't have to pay out.  Woot!  

That sounds remarkably like a translation from a foreign language to english that is messed up.  There is only one reference for obfuscate that might even begin to hold water (concealed)

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11 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

That sounds remarkably like a translation from a foreign language to english that is messed up.  There is only one reference for obfuscate that might even begin to hold water (concealed)

Those obsfuscated, ephemeral bugs are the worst... even if they are esoteric.

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1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

If you remove all the oil or all the water from your cars engine, which one will cause it to overheat the quickest.

That's a different question.  

The majority of the heat in an engine is created from combustion, not friction.  The water keeps that temperature under control.  Remove the oil, and the heat from the friction rises rapidly, raising the temperature.  Is that overheating?   However (as evidenced by may tests of oil deprived engines), the failure mode is seizing from friction, not overheating.  If you want to just overheat a car, drain the water.

Dragster run under stress for seconds.  Why are NASCAR engines water cooled?

Oil transfers heat, Water (or air) is still the primary cooling (except in dragsters)  Why, in higher stressed engines, does the oil cooler use water to cool the oil (except in air cooled engines)

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On 2/23/2020 at 12:27 AM, Dottles said:

Well I just need to get the car healthy to unload it -- which I will. But I don't have as big of angst as I just bought a new Hybrid RAV4. My wife and I couldn't be happier. For now we put down a non-refundable fee to have them transfer it our dealership. We pick it up next Saturday.

 

4 minutes ago, Longjohn said:

So how soon are you picking up that new car? Every time I see new posts in this thread I check it and still talking about the old one.

Next Saturday.

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28 minutes ago, 12string said:

That's a different question.  

The majority of the heat in an engine is created from combustion, not friction.  The water keeps that temperature under control.  Remove the oil, and the heat from the friction rises rapidly, raising the temperature.  Is that overheating?   However (as evidenced by may tests of oil deprived engines), the failure mode is seizing from friction, not overheating.  If you want to just overheat a car, drain the water.

Dragster run under stress for seconds.  Why are NASCAR engines water cooled?

Oil transfers heat, Water (or air) is still the primary cooling (except in dragsters)  Why, in higher stressed engines, does the oil cooler use water to cool the oil (except in air cooled engines)

^^^links are above.  And the answer to this question is that if you remove the water, the engine will run for a while.  If you remove the oil, you will seriously damage components withing minutes if not sooner.  Pistons, rings, rods and bearings do not have water passages.  It's not the friction heat that needs to be removed, it's combustion heat.

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46 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

That sounds remarkably like a translation from a foreign language to english that is messed up.  There is only one reference for obfuscate that might even begin to hold water (concealed)

That was my word and concealed was my intent. Software term. I'm guilty. I'm guilty.

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57 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

It's not the friction heat that needs to be removed, it's combustion heat.

And wasn't it you that said the oil removes the friction heat?  Your links also quite specifically stated that oil cooling was secondary.

"you will seriously damage components".  From friction, not overheating.  

 

From a whitepaper on a proposed new type of diesel engine, intended to cool with a thermal transfer fluids other than water for army tanks

image.png.587936e5b31e570d325074e67822e0b4.png

 

Been hitting googles all over, have yet to find one that says oil is the primary means of cooling an auto engine, except in very specific case like dragsters.  You did get me learning some stuff looking this up.

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Just now, 12string said:

And wasn't it you that said the oil removes the friction heat?  Your links also quite specifically stated that oil cooling was secondary.

Been hitting googles all over, have yet to find one that says oil is the primary means of cooling an auto engine, except in very specific case like dragsters.  You did get me learning some stuff looking this up

I've learned a lot. So thank you all.

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