Ralphie ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Share #1 Posted March 28, 2020 If we could run the world in this environmentally friendly manner but have the economy function too? That is what I have been lusting after philosophically for years. It could not be this extreme of course, just splitting the difference would be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted March 28, 2020 Share #2 Posted March 28, 2020 We could do it but we'd need a paradigm sift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted March 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, donkpow said: We could do it but we'd need a paradigm sift. Well now is the )(*&^%$ time! Let me give Greta a call! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted March 28, 2020 Share #4 Posted March 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: Well now is the )(*&^%$ time! Let me give Greta a call! Green Greta? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share #5 Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, donkpow said: Green Greta? Yup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted March 28, 2020 Share #6 Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: Yup! Gee-Gee to her friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longjohn ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Share #7 Posted March 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: Well now is the )(*&^%$ time! Let me give Greta a call! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted March 28, 2020 Share #8 Posted March 28, 2020 You know, as far as I am concerned, when civilization turned away from Earth centered deities for their worship, we sealed our own fate. Back pedaling to return to an ethos that does not exploit natural resources is now nearly impossible. At least that's what Gee-Gee says. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted March 28, 2020 Share #9 Posted March 28, 2020 I hate to rain on your parade but... It appears that gasoline consumption could be down 55% in March which is environmentally good but... Assuming this new reality continues (which is most likely will) then there will be a new problem. Oil refineries either make gas, diesel, and other fuels or they don't. There is not much of a middle ground for refinery production, just about all or nothing. If consumption of fuels is down for a few months the problem is, eventually there will be no place to store the products of the refineries make and then they would need to shut down. I'd assume some may never restart, just like the small business that are closed now. Prices for fuel will be cheap for a while, that may kill off other parts of the industry too. And then, when things get back to a new normal, we may not have enough refinery capacity for the fuel we need, and the prices will increase to high levels again. Who knows... we could think $5 gas is cheap after this all ends. Time will tell. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted March 28, 2020 Share #10 Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, Bikeguy said: I hate to rain on your parade but... It appears that gasoline consumption could be down 55% in March which is environmentally good but... Assuming this new reality continues (which is most likely will) then there will be a new problem. Oil refineries either make gas, diesel, and other fuels or they don't. There is not much of a middle ground for refinery production, just about all or nothing. If consumption of fuels is down for a few months the problem is, eventually there will be no place to store the products of the refineries make and then they would need to shut down. I'd assume some may never restart, just like the small business that are closed now. Prices for fuel will be cheap for a while, that may kill off other parts of the industry too. And then, when things get back to a new normal, we may not have enough refinery capacity for the fuel we need, and the prices will increase to high levels again. Who knows... we could think $5 gas is cheap after this all ends. Time will tell. Elon is your friend. Embrace him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share #11 Posted March 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Bikeguy said: I hate to rain on your parade but... It appears that gasoline consumption could be down 55% in March which is environmentally good but... Assuming this new reality continues (which is most likely will) then there will be a new problem. Oil refineries either make gas, diesel, and other fuels or they don't. There is not much of a middle ground for refinery production, just about all or nothing. If consumption of fuels is down for a few months the problem is, eventually there will be no place to store the products of the refineries make and then they would need to shut down. I'd assume some may never restart, just like the small business that are closed now. Prices for fuel will be cheap for a while, that may kill off other parts of the industry too. And then, when things get back to a new normal, we may not have enough refinery capacity for the fuel we need, and the prices will increase to high levels again. Who knows... we could think $5 gas is cheap after this all ends. Time will tell. Yup, that is a big thing to keep the economy going, and we haven;t done anything like this because of the pain of change. But our hand has been forced now. Short term will be absolutely miserable for most of us no matter what we do, I am thinking longer term for our young people 'cause I'll be dead anyhoo. It is a double whammy for oil jobs - this PLUS the Putin/Saudi Arabia oil price war started right smack dab in the middle of it. This has to absolutely kill US shale oil and therefore the economy of the oil regions plus the ripple effect. Previously Saudi Arabia was hesitant to crash the western economy, but I don't think Putin has any such qualms, probably quite the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted March 28, 2020 Share #12 Posted March 28, 2020 I think Putin's bid to become emperor was quashed recently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share #13 Posted March 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, donkpow said: I think Putin's bid to become emperor was quashed recently. Putin is the perfect Russian boogeyman, right from Central Casting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Share #14 Posted March 28, 2020 20 minutes ago, Bikeguy said: I hate to rain on your parade but... It appears that gasoline consumption could be down 55% in March which is environmentally good but... Assuming this new reality continues (which is most likely will) then there will be a new problem. Oil refineries either make gas, diesel, and other fuels or they don't. There is not much of a middle ground for refinery production, just about all or nothing. If consumption of fuels is down for a few months the problem is, eventually there will be no place to store the products of the refineries make and then they would need to shut down. I'd assume some may never restart, just like the small business that are closed now. Prices for fuel will be cheap for a while, that may kill off other parts of the industry too. And then, when things get back to a new normal, we may not have enough refinery capacity for the fuel we need, and the prices will increase to high levels again. Who knows... we could think $5 gas is cheap after this all ends. Time will tell. That's a strange argument. We should drive more and pollute more to save the refinery business? On the other hand, if gas prices rose, people might be inclined to drive less and pollute less. Or buy more fuel efficient cars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted March 28, 2020 Share #15 Posted March 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, dennis said: That's a strange argument. We should drive more and pollute more to save the refinery business? On the other hand, if gas prices rose, people might be inclined to drive less and pollute less. Or buy more fuel efficient cars. I'm thinking about a new car. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Share #16 Posted March 28, 2020 1 minute ago, donkpow said: I'm thinking about a new car. Didn't Bruce write a song about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted March 28, 2020 Share #17 Posted March 28, 2020 Just now, dennis said: Didn't Bruce write a song about that? A pink Cadillac? I think it was Mary Kay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerrySTL ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Share #18 Posted March 28, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted March 28, 2020 Share #19 Posted March 28, 2020 1 hour ago, dennis said: hat's a strange argument. We should drive more and pollute more to save the refinery business? I'm not suggesting we save the refineries. I'm suggesting that we are nowhere near ready to move to other forms of fuel (most likely electricity) for transportation. How many fast charging stations are there in most towns, or cities or even homes? If you go with fuel cells, it's not like there are many hydrogen stations anywhere (except for some locations in California). So in the meantime... we will still need gas and diesel for transportation. In the short term, the fuel prices will continue to go down. And this pandemic could cause long term issues for refinery production. Cheap fuel... that has helped many to justify to go out and by a SUV rather than electric cars or even just a regular car. I'll keep my Prius for a while. When I built my new home, one thing I insisted on was a 240 V circuit to the garage, with enough amps for car charging. The builder and electrician both didn't think that was necessary. I think it eventually will be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Author Share #20 Posted March 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bikeguy said: I'm not suggesting we save the refineries. I'm suggesting that we are nowhere near ready to move to other forms of fuel (most likely electricity) for transportation. How many fast charging stations are there in most towns, or cities or even homes? If you go with fuel cells, it's not like there are many hydrogen stations anywhere (except for some locations in California). So in the meantime... we will still need gas and diesel for transportation. In the short term, the fuel prices will continue to go down. And this pandemic could cause long term issues for refinery production. Cheap fuel... that has helped many to justify to go out and by a SUV rather than electric cars or even just a regular car. I'll keep my Prius for a while. When I built my new home, one thing I insisted on was a 240 V circuit to the garage, with enough amps for car charging. The builder and electrician both didn't think that was necessary. I think it eventually will be used. My main point was we drive way more than we really have to, and I think it would be cool if we could stay home like this! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted March 28, 2020 Share #21 Posted March 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: My main point was we drive way more than we really have to, and I think it would be cool if we could stay home like this! I like this. I'm around 2200 miles in the last 12 months. Our LGS has 8 charging stations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted March 28, 2020 Share #22 Posted March 28, 2020 20 minutes ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: My main point was we drive way more than we really have to, and I think it would be cool if we could stay home like this! I totally agree... we do indeed drive way too much. Hopefully the trend continues, after the virus. It sure would help to make riding on the roads a bit safer. 8 minutes ago, dennis said: Our LGS has 8 charging stations. Good luck trying to find a charging station at any LGS anywhere near me, or any charging station near me. I hope they will be installed. But I just don't see that happening at a very fast pace any place close to my area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickinMD ★ Posted March 29, 2020 Share #23 Posted March 29, 2020 On 3/28/2020 at 10:26 AM, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: If we could run the world in this environmentally friendly manner but have the economy function too? That is what I have been lusting after philosophically for years. It could not be this extreme of course, just splitting the difference would be awesome. I read an article about "living with nature" as the original natives of Maryland once did. It concluded you'd need to cut the state's population from 6,000,000 to about 250,000 in order to do so today. As the first president of the Maryland Waste Coalition - the RCRA Act-recognized official statewide citizens' watchdog group formed in the '80's, I'm sure it could be done with the current population, though it would require a small downgrade to convenience and, unfortunately, the avg. American is an ignorant know-it-all who is afraid of environmentalism will cost jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted March 29, 2020 Share #24 Posted March 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, MickinMD said: I read an article about "living with nature" as the original natives of Maryland once did. It concluded you'd need to cut the state's population from 6,000,000 to about 250,000 in order to do so today. As the first president of the Maryland Waste Coalition - the RCRA Act-recognized official statewide citizens' watchdog group formed in the '80's, I'm sure it could be done with the current population, though it would require a small downgrade to convenience and, unfortunately, the avg. American is an ignorant know-it-all who is afraid of environmentalism will cost jobs. We're working on it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted March 29, 2020 Share #25 Posted March 29, 2020 22 hours ago, Bikeguy said: I'm suggesting that we are nowhere near ready to move to other forms of fuel (most likely electricity) for transportation. How many fast charging stations are there in most towns, or cities or even homes? If you go with fuel cells, it's not like there are many hydrogen stations anywhere (except for some locations in California). No offense, but have you looked back to 2000? How many hybrids or full electric cars were rolling around? We got the Pris in 2000. We got the Tesla Roadster in 2008 & the S in 2012. This sort of effort takes a little while to ramp up, but eventually a critical mass is achieved and the "electric" car simply becomes the car. It's sort of crazy to think 20 years is a fair window for EVs to catch, surpass, and make obsolete ICE vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share #26 Posted March 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, maddmaxx said: We're working on it. Yeah, that was always the caveat in my mind, when the injuns lived sustainably there were a hell of a lot less of them. Now we are sort of like an overgrazed pasture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted March 29, 2020 Share #27 Posted March 29, 2020 10 minutes ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: Yeah, that was always the caveat in my mind, when the injuns lived sustainably there were a hell of a lot less of them. Now we are sort of like an overgrazed pasture. A closed ecology (planet) tends to maintain itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted March 29, 2020 Author Share #28 Posted March 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, maddmaxx said: A closed ecology (planet) tends to maintain itself. Exactly. We are not closed or in balance as far as petroleum or water for two biggies. I am thinking of mining the water in the ogalalla acquifer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted March 29, 2020 Share #29 Posted March 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Razors Edge said: It's sort of crazy to think 20 years is a fair window for EVs to catch, surpass, and make obsolete ICE vehicles. 20 years from now, yes. My first Prius was a 2005. My second Prius is a 2016. The U.S. market share of plug-in electric passenger cars increased from 0.14% in 2011 to 0.62% in 2013; reached 0.75% in 2014 and fell to 0.66% in 2015. Then climbed to 0.90% in 2016, to 1.13% in 2017, and achieved a record market share of 2.1% in 2018. Hybrid sales in the American market achieved its highest market share ever in 2013, capturing 3.19% of new car sales that year, and dropped below 2% by April 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted April 1, 2020 Share #30 Posted April 1, 2020 On 3/28/2020 at 11:49 AM, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: My main point was we drive way more than we really have to, and I think it would be cool if we could stay home like this! The total miles driven my WoBG and I is down 64% for the month of March, compared to last year. If this continues, we can probably quality for a low mileage discount for our car insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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