Razors Edge ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #1 Posted April 17, 2020 @jsharr got me thinking, and I bet @donkpow @dennis @ChrisL and other bike folks might have some ideas or experience upgrading an older steel bike to a 10sp. This is an old mid 80's steel frame running 8 speed 105 on a set of 2005 Alex rims that came on a Trek My feelings are that a mid-80s steel frame might accept or be finessed into accepting a 10sp wheel. Likely, the 2005 Alex rims ARE 10sp size. So then, are there other issues that a conversion would bump up against? Weird BB standards? Some other compatibility issue? I feel like if the shoe (10sp compatible wheel) fits, then all the other stuff is a no-brainer swap (assuming a BB is found). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted April 17, 2020 Share #2 Posted April 17, 2020 I cold set the Lotus frame to contain the wider dimension of the rear hub. Everything else is just new parts. P.S. Call @Rattlecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #3 Posted April 17, 2020 When I bought the bike used, it was running 7 speed and it took the 8 speed wheel with no trouble. Not sure I have anything 10 speed in my stable. I think my Trek 1200 is 3*9. I may see if I can put the Mavics on the Trek on the Falcon for a test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #4 Posted April 17, 2020 Why? I'd go SS. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #5 Posted April 17, 2020 Or I could install the 10 speed stuff on the 2005 Trek and try to move the 3*9 to the Falcon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #6 Posted April 17, 2020 Just now, dennis said: Why? I'd go SS. I am old and fat and have bad knees and just the thought of single speed makes my knees hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #7 Posted April 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, jsharr said: I am old and fat and have bad knees and just the thought of single speed makes my knees hurt. I guess my point is why spend money upgrading that old bike? 8 vs 10 is not much of an upgrade unless you already own the parts. I'd save the money and put it toward a new bike with better geometry. You can upgrade that old bike to XTR but it will still have rim brakes, little wheels, and old school geometry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Author Share #8 Posted April 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, jsharr said: When I bought the bike used, it was running 7 speed and it took the 8 speed wheel with no trouble. Not sure I have anything 10 speed in my stable. I think my Trek 1200 is 3*9. I may see if I can put the Mavics on the Trek on the Falcon for a test. Likely the Alex is a 10sp hub. If it is a 2005, many (most) hubs were able to use 10sp (like 8/9/10 sp compatible) by then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #9 Posted April 17, 2020 1 minute ago, dennis said: I guess my point is why spend money upgrading that old bike? 8 vs 10 is not much of an upgrade unless you already own the parts. I'd save the money and put it toward a new bike with better geometry. You can upgrade that old bike to XTR but it will still have rim brakes, little wheels, and old school geometry. Only costs may be labor. I love the feel of old steel, but I do not like DT shifters as much as I do integrated shifters. So I can either buy Microshift for $50 used, or do a full upgrade with some parts that were offered to me. And it would be fun to do this with Ryan. Let him help do a group set swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #10 Posted April 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, jsharr said: Only costs may be labor. I love the feel of old steel, but I do not like DT shifters as much as I do integrated shifters. So I can either buy Microshift for $50 used, or do a full upgrade with some parts that were offered to me. And it would be fun to do this with Ryan. Let him help do a group set swap. I don't think all upgrades are bad. But what does he gain going from 8 to 10? Not much. If the old parts were shot and he has to replace them, ok. But if you are just doing to gain 2 extra gears, why bother? A new drivetrain can be expensive. I love steel bikes. I own two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #11 Posted April 17, 2020 He would get a 2*10 instead of 3*9 and I would get my knee saving triple back and integrated shifters. That is the gain. And I quck check with the dial caliper shows that the dropout width is the same on both bikes, so the upgrade should be easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #12 Posted April 17, 2020 14 minutes ago, jsharr said: He would get a 2*10 instead of 3*9 and I would get my knee saving triple back and integrated shifters. That is the gain. And I quck check with the dial caliper shows that the dropout width is the same on both bikes, so the upgrade should be easy. I was referring to @Razors Edge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #13 Posted April 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, dennis said: I was referring to @Razors Edge He may have started this thread to assist me..... Not certain, but pretty sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Author Share #14 Posted April 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, jsharr said: He may have started this thread to assist me..... Not certain, but pretty sure. It's both a thread for jsharr and a thread for "hmm? how's this actually work?" I rarely replace something that isn't broken, but have in the past and will do again surely. My steel-is-real MTB is essentially ALL the original parts except wheels and wearable bits like chain, cables, tires, and brake pads. It works fine - especially as a commuter, but also on relatively moderate single track. Also, I LIKE gears. My knees like gears. And the world likes gears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted April 17, 2020 Share #15 Posted April 17, 2020 I considered the gearing available before changing to 10 spd. Also, bringing the old bike to 10 spd, matching the new bike, saves me in parts inventory management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #16 Posted April 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, jsharr said: He may have started this thread to assist me..... Not certain, but pretty sure. Maybe. The real issue here is everyone should listen to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #17 Posted April 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, dennis said: Maybe. The real issue here is everyone should listen to me. I have heard a pedal wrench makes a great attention getter for those with wandering minds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #18 Posted April 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, jsharr said: I have heard a pedal wrench makes a great attention getter for those with wandering minds. Stay in line MFer or I will get office space on yer Texan ass. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #19 Posted April 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, dennis said: Stay in line MFer or I will get office space on yer Texan ass. I bet you say that to all the cowboys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted April 17, 2020 Share #20 Posted April 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, jsharr said: I bet you say that to all the cowboys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisL Posted April 18, 2020 Share #21 Posted April 18, 2020 Other than the rear drop out spacing that would nenes to be cold set I think you can source the parts to make it work. I’m sure somebody makes a BB & crank that would work but it’d probably be a bit of a Franken bike. Just know you may end up down the rabbit hole of non compatibility, cost & frustration of cobbling it together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share #22 Posted April 18, 2020 13 hours ago, ChrisL said: Other than the rear drop out spacing that would nenes to be cold set I think you can source the parts to make it work. I’m sure somebody makes a BB & crank that would work but it’d probably be a bit of a Franken bike. Just know you may end up down the rabbit hole of non compatibility, cost & frustration of cobbling it together. I think we decided the rear spacing was "good" as he is rolling with the 2005 Alex back there already. It seems many bikes in the 80s were moving to the wider spacing, and his may have that or have been flexible enough to fit the newer size. After, that, I see the issue being newer crankset in a 80s BB. I know my buddy put full Campy 10sp on his mid-80s bike, so there are BBs to be had to do it. I am not sure about the FD, now that I think about it, in that you have braze on (direct mount) and banded (removable) front derailleur options on bikes, so that's another potential change - probably $20 for a FD mount if needed, but the one on the frame might work fine. I'd also assume the Alex has a 10sp compatible hub, since it wasn't until 11sp where they added the slightly different splines. Brakes are probably a straightforward swap and will match the new brifter pull ratio. And the brifters just swap into the old brake lever area. The DT shifters come off (shifting via the brifters), and maybe a cable guides/adjusters for the old downtube shifter mounts? Not sure if those are necessary or not. Regardless, it will be a "project" that jsharr and his son will come out on the other side quite a bit smarter than me since they will have answered/solved all the questions I have written above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted April 18, 2020 Share #23 Posted April 18, 2020 I kept the 7 spd cassette for a while until I could collect all the parts for the conversion. That involved the cassette spacer for the 7 spd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizeye Posted April 23, 2020 Share #24 Posted April 23, 2020 I went from a 6sp freewheel to a 9sp cassette. Only thing that held me back from a 10sp...but probably would have worked...was concern about the chain. 6/7/8 sp chains have 7.3mm width, 9sp 6.6mm width and 10sp 5.88mm width. While wouldn't have mattered with the appropriate sprocket, 9 vs 10, the concern was the front crank rings were designed for 6sp. I was afraid they would spread a 10sp chain too much, but less so with a 9sp. Of course, if the front chainrings are too wide for the chain, you may be able to avoid a new crank by simply upgrading the front chain rings IF the mount locations are the same. The project started with the desire to build a wheelset (Mavic Open Road Pro with Chorus hubs) to replace the original Mavics that not only were warped but were not designed with a brake milling, just a straight alloy stamping. While Sakae is nothing to brag about, I didn't really want to replace the front crank AND keep budget low so elected the 9sp. Of course, at the time, 11 and 12sp (forget about that level upgrade) hadn't come out so 10sp was the premium priced parts. I did replace the rear derailleur to Campy Centaur as my old one (Shimano 600) was well worn out and slipping badly. The original Campy Triomphe was destroyed years earlier and the shop put the 600 on as also had to repair the dropout. Thanks to downtube shifting was able to keep the front derailleur and any rear would work. Got a lot of info on wheelbuilding from the SheldonBrown site but it really doesn't address gear upgrade considerations. Although, I didn't have to spread my frame spacing from 126 to 131 as it slipped right in, but as I recall when attaching rear wheel to frame, I always had to compress the rear stays with the palm of my hand to fit the hub, so must have naturally spread on its own. (From the photos you can see why my next bike won't be white. That is the original paint.) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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