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Converting to 10sp?


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@jsharr got me thinking, and I bet @donkpow @dennis @ChrisL and other bike folks might have some ideas or experience upgrading an older steel bike to a 10sp.

This is an old mid 80's steel frame running 8 speed 105 on a set of 2005 Alex rims that came on a Trek

My feelings are that a mid-80s steel frame might accept or be finessed into accepting a 10sp wheel. Likely, the 2005 Alex rims ARE 10sp size.

So then, are there other issues that a conversion would bump up against? Weird BB standards? Some other compatibility issue?

I feel like if the shoe (10sp compatible wheel) fits, then all the other stuff is a no-brainer swap (assuming a BB is found).

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When I bought the bike used, it was running 7 speed and it took the 8 speed wheel with no trouble.

Not sure I have anything 10 speed in my stable.  I think my Trek 1200 is 3*9.

I may see if I can put the Mavics on the Trek on the Falcon for a test.

 

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4 minutes ago, jsharr said:

I am old and fat and have bad knees and just the thought of single speed makes my knees hurt.

I guess my point is why spend money upgrading that old bike? 8 vs 10 is not much of an upgrade unless you already own the parts. I'd save the money and put it toward a new bike with better geometry. You can upgrade that old bike to XTR but it will still have rim brakes, little wheels, and old school geometry. 

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9 minutes ago, jsharr said:

When I bought the bike used, it was running 7 speed and it took the 8 speed wheel with no trouble.

Not sure I have anything 10 speed in my stable.  I think my Trek 1200 is 3*9.

I may see if I can put the Mavics on the Trek on the Falcon for a test.

 

Likely the Alex is a 10sp hub. If it is a 2005, many (most) hubs were able to use 10sp (like 8/9/10 sp compatible) by then.

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1 minute ago, dennis said:

I guess my point is why spend money upgrading that old bike? 8 vs 10 is not much of an upgrade unless you already own the parts. I'd save the money and put it toward a new bike with better geometry. You can upgrade that old bike to XTR but it will still have rim brakes, little wheels, and old school geometry. 

Only costs may be labor.  I love the feel of old steel, but I do not like DT shifters as much as I do integrated shifters.  So I can either buy Microshift for $50 used, or do a full upgrade with some parts that were offered to me.

And it would be fun to do this with Ryan.  Let him help do a group set swap.  

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3 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Only costs may be labor.  I love the feel of old steel, but I do not like DT shifters as much as I do integrated shifters.  So I can either buy Microshift for $50 used, or do a full upgrade with some parts that were offered to me.

And it would be fun to do this with Ryan.  Let him help do a group set swap.  

I don't think all upgrades are bad. But what does he gain going from 8 to 10? Not much. If the old parts were shot and he has to replace them, ok. But if you are just doing to gain 2 extra gears, why bother? A new drivetrain can be expensive. 

I love steel bikes. I own two.

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He would get a 2*10 instead of 3*9 and I would get my knee saving triple back and integrated shifters.  That is the gain.

And I quck check with the dial caliper shows that the dropout width is the same on both bikes, so the upgrade should be easy.

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4 minutes ago, jsharr said:

He may have started this thread to assist me.....

Not certain, but pretty sure.

It's both a thread for jsharr and a thread for "hmm? how's this actually work?"

I rarely replace something that isn't broken, but have in the past and will do again surely.  My steel-is-real MTB is essentially ALL the original parts except wheels and wearable bits like chain, cables, tires, and brake pads.  It works fine - especially as a commuter, but also on relatively moderate single track. 

Also, I LIKE gears. My knees like gears. And the world likes gears :)

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Other than the rear drop out spacing that would nenes to be cold set I think you can source the parts to make it work.  I’m sure somebody makes a BB & crank that would work but it’d probably be a bit of a Franken bike.  

Just know you may end up down the rabbit hole of non compatibility, cost & frustration of cobbling it together.

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13 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Other than the rear drop out spacing that would nenes to be cold set I think you can source the parts to make it work.  I’m sure somebody makes a BB & crank that would work but it’d probably be a bit of a Franken bike.  

Just know you may end up down the rabbit hole of non compatibility, cost & frustration of cobbling it together.

I think we decided the rear spacing was "good" as he is rolling with the 2005 Alex back there already.  It seems many bikes in the 80s were moving to the wider spacing, and his may have that or have been flexible enough to fit the newer size.

After, that, I see the issue being newer crankset in a 80s BB.  I know my buddy put full Campy 10sp on his mid-80s bike, so there are BBs to be had to do it.  I am not sure about the FD, now that I think about it, in that you have braze on (direct mount) and banded (removable) front derailleur options on bikes, so that's another potential change - probably $20 for a FD mount if needed, but the one on the frame might work fine.

I'd also assume the Alex has a 10sp compatible hub, since it wasn't until 11sp where they added the slightly different splines. Brakes are probably a straightforward swap and will match the new brifter pull ratio. And the brifters just swap into the old brake lever area.  The DT shifters come off (shifting via the brifters), and maybe a cable guides/adjusters for the old downtube shifter mounts?  Not sure if those are necessary or not.

Regardless, it will be a "project" that jsharr and his son will come out on the other side quite a bit smarter than me since they will have answered/solved all the questions I have written above :D

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I went from a 6sp freewheel to a 9sp cassette. Only thing that held me back from a 10sp...but probably would have worked...was concern about the chain. 6/7/8 sp chains have 7.3mm width, 9sp 6.6mm width and 10sp 5.88mm width. While wouldn't have mattered with the appropriate sprocket, 9 vs 10, the concern was the front crank rings were designed for 6sp. I was afraid they would spread a 10sp chain too much, but less so with a 9sp. Of course, if the front chainrings are too wide for the chain, you may be able to avoid a new crank by simply upgrading the front chain rings IF the mount locations are the same.

The project started with the desire to build a wheelset (Mavic Open Road Pro with Chorus hubs) to replace the original Mavics that not only were warped but were not designed with a brake milling, just a straight alloy stamping. While Sakae is nothing to brag about, I didn't really want to replace the front crank AND keep budget low so elected the 9sp. Of course, at the time, 11 and 12sp (forget about that level upgrade) hadn't come out so 10sp was the premium priced parts. I did replace the rear derailleur to Campy Centaur as my old one (Shimano 600) was well worn out and slipping badly. The original Campy Triomphe was destroyed years earlier and the shop put the 600 on as also had to repair the dropout.  Thanks to downtube shifting was able to keep the front derailleur and any rear would work. 

Got a lot of info on wheelbuilding from the SheldonBrown site but it really doesn't address gear upgrade considerations. Although, I didn't have to spread my frame spacing from 126 to 131 as it slipped right in, but as I recall when attaching rear wheel to frame, I always had to compress the rear stays with the palm of my hand to fit the hub, so must have naturally spread on its own.

(From the photos you can see why my next bike won't be white. That is the original paint.)

 

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