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...when upgrading from 11sp to 12sp???

I currently run a 11-28 with my 50/34 (11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-28).  Assuming everything was compatible, I guess I would go to a 32 as my 12th?  Seems to give a great granny gear option.  I spend most of my time in the 15, 17, & 19 tooth cogs, so maybe a 16 would make sense over the 32?  

I'm not sure when Shimano will "match" Campy, but I assume it is soon.

Tom

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36 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I would have to add 12 of them.

or 11 

or 10

or even 9

If you don't ride, maxx, I suggest staying in the Off-Topic sections of the forum :D

Tom

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I'd say it depends on the course you ride. That was the original criteria used when multi-speed freewheels were in place. If justification for any selection is not apparent, you are just doing it for it's own sake.

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A corgi will probably be the next dog that we add.

 

Oh, you said cog, that sounds like bike talk, I got nothing.  Want to talk about dogs instead?

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56 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

So a 10-50t Eagle cassette?  Gnarly!

10t, 12t, 14t, 16t, 18t, 21t, 24t, 28t, 32t, 36t, 42t, 50t

eagle.thumb.jpg.686e3d4ff52d5c283a86b7620a69cf80.jpg

Tom

That's the one.  Obviously a MTBers suggestion, but you weight weenie roadies should appreciate the weight savings of a single front ring, I think.

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7 minutes ago, Reverend_Maynard said:

That's the one.  Obviously a MTBers suggestion, but you weight weenie roadies should appreciate the weight savings of a single front ring, I think.

That "tool" definitely has its place in the toolbox.  For a flat TT, a 1x5 would likely be fine.  SRAM has gone the path of 1x for dirt and road. Shimano has for dirt and likely road eventually.  Plenty of foks even roll with just a single gear, but they are clearly too worried about weight to think straight.

As a Di2 owner though, but not a "weight weenie", I essentially have a 1x14 or so if I choose to use Synchro Shift S2 mode.  Weight can be shaved from the Di2 system or going the 1x route, but 14 gears is still better than 12.  And when Di2 12speed comes along, it will be like having 15 or 16 gears :)  

Tom

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On 5/21/2018 at 9:12 PM, Razors Edge said:

If you don't ride, maxx, I suggest staying in the Off-Topic sections of the forum :D

Tom

If you didn't understand what I was saying I'll spell it out.  I ride.  I ride an 8 speed system, either 2x8 or 1x8.  That led to my joke about adding a specific extra cog to a system that already seems to have too many.  IMO the new systems sacrifice the stability of their tune, cost and the longevity of the chain for a set of gears not really needed by non pros who ride in pelotons with a very narrow cadence and a constantly changing speed.

As for the tech sections......I build my own bikes and wheels and for a while I built for others.  OK by you now if I post here?

Yes, my avatar is an 11/40 8sp which I use on the single front ring setup.  On the compact double I use the 12/34 to fit with the higher tooth capacity needed.

 

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25 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

If you didn't understand what I was saying I'll spell it out.  I ride.  I ride an 8 speed system, either 2x8 or 1x8.  That led to my joke about adding a specific extra cog to a system that already seems to have too many.  IMO the new systems sacrifice the stability of their tune, cost and the longevity of the chain for a set of gears not really needed by non pros who ride in pelotons with a very narrow cadence and a constantly changing speed. 

OK by you now?

Yes, my avatar is an 11/40

So, what are your existing cogs on your 8, and what FOUR new cogs would you add?  That's a nice bump up in options.

Tom

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An interesting set of advantages to the 12sp vs an 8sp is the potential for much wider choices (super low, super high) AND tighter gaps (no jump higher than 20%):

12SRAM.thumb.JPG.0e710e6e926b7d5ec4c7ae39bfa1eadb.JPG         8sp.JPG.96aa5242959747006c7134729a882c2a.JPG      12-34.JPG.fe6f93b328d1d77b79b80f9c016d69ed.JPG

Tom

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2 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

So, what are your existing cogs on your 8, and what FOUR new cogs would you add?  That's a nice bump up in options.

Tom

I won't.  The current setup fits my riding style at this age.  I do not object to drops or increases in cadence as I don't ride in groups where small changes may be necessary at any time.  In return I get a setup that is practically bullet proof and certainly fits my budget better than most.  I live in the world of NOS (new old stock) with $18 dollar cassettes (Sun Race 12/34) and "nobody wants this stuff" prices.  That leaves me room for nicer stuff like my Shimano wheelset.

11-13-15-18-22-28-34-40 is the 11/40 cassette used for single front rings.

12-14-16-18-21-24-28-34 is what I use on the compact double front setup so the derailleur can handle the max teeth number for shfting.

I really have no need for a 50.  I rarely even need the 40. I simply don't climb that sort of hill anymore.  Perhaps if I had a trike and I could just lay there climbing the hill at 2mph and 100 cadence.

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...only pussies need more than 8 cogs in the back get a reasonable gearing range with adequate steps for cadence. Pussies and steroid pumping pro race weenies is what's driving this insanity.

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...what real men used to race on is a 53/48 in the front and a 12/24 six speed close ratio freewheel in the back.

 

 

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I did two types of ride yesterday - a solo by myself (36 miles) and a ride with my wife (6 miles).  A neat thing about Di2 is it can track your shifting.  On the 36 mile ride, I shifted the rear a little over 250 times (7 times per mile). On the 6 mile ride, I shifted 20 times (3.3/mile).  For the 6 mile ride, I'd say 10 shifts were part of the 1/4 up and down a steep hill, but the rest was basically steady state casual riding (HR below 100).  The longer, faster, shiftier ride involved no peloton or pro guys (but some dude did draft me for a while).

With a nice tight cassette, shifting to stay in a nice sweet cadence spot is a reasonable action, and I think a 12th cog will make that tight cassette even more flexible.

Tom 

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18 hours ago, donkpow said:

I have found close ratio gearing more pleasant to ride than conventional steps. I have almost half step gearing on my regular bike.

...one of the gearing setups I have enjoyed the most recently (I experiment) is six speed Shimano indexed shifters with a half step ratio on the chain rings.

Back in the day when half step was popular, everything was straight friction, so the double shift you need to make a lot of the time (front and rear) was a little trickier. Indexing makes it a breeze. You need a pretty good collection of Shimano 13 bcd chainrings to experiment with it.  Fortunately, there are a lot of them in the used parts steam, but the 48/47 ones that work well for half step with a 52 or 53 are harder to find.

There's a place down in Marin, Trips for Kids, that runs a high end used bike and parts business that has a pretty good selection, but they sell on e-bay, too, so are overpriced..

 

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1 minute ago, Page Turner said:

...one of the gearing setups I have enjoyed the most recently (I experiment) is six speed Shimano indexed shifters with a half step ratio on the chain rings.

Back in the day when half step was popular, everything was straight friction, so the double shift you need to make a lot of the time (front and rear) was a little trickier. Indexing makes it a breeze. You need a pretty good collection of Shimano 13 bcd chainrings to experiment with it.  Fortunately, there are a lot of them in the used parts steam, but the 48/47 ones that work well for half step with a 52 or 53 are harder to find.

There's a place down in Marin, Trips for Kids, that runs a high end used bike and parts business that has a pretty good selection, but they sell on e-bay, too, so are overpriced..

 

I am running a stock 14-28T Shimano 6 speed freewheel with a triple crank with 30-42-44T gears. I don't need the top end for that bike. Even though I am not likely to use the steeper gears as it sits now.

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On 5/22/2018 at 4:12 PM, Reverend_Maynard said:

That's the one.  Obviously a MTBers suggestion, but you weight weenie roadies should appreciate the weight savings of a single front ring, I think.

The 10-51 (!) has arrived.  Shimano literally one upping SRAM :D  BTW, I'm not gonna count those teeth.

CS-M9100-12_zz_zz_10-51_zz_zz_zz_S1-768x682.jpg.b57087d14f6bc50ffe1e0809becfc6d7.jpg

10-51t cassette (12-speed): 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-33-39-45-51

Tom

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3 hours ago, Page Turner said:

...you know that line in Jaws, "You're gonna need a bigger boat." ?  You're gonna need a longer chain.

And a new derailleur.

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On 5/24/2018 at 12:35 PM, Razors Edge said:

I did two types of ride yesterday - a solo by myself (36 miles) and a ride with my wife (6 miles).  A neat thing about Di2 is it can track your shifting.  On the 36 mile ride, I shifted the rear a little over 250 times (7 times per mile). On the 6 mile ride, I shifted 20 times (3.3/mile).  For the 6 mile ride, I'd say 10 shifts were part of the 1/4 up and down a steep hill, but the rest was basically steady state casual riding (HR below 100).  The longer, faster, shiftier ride involved no peloton or pro guys (but some dude did draft me for a while).

With a nice tight cassette, shifting to stay in a nice sweet cadence spot is a reasonable action, and I think a 12th cog will make that tight cassette even more flexible.

Tom 

OMG, a bike computer that counts shifts too?   

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On 6/6/2018 at 1:43 AM, maddmaxx said:

OMG, a bike computer that counts shifts too?   

Yep.  There are lots of choices, and new ones periodically added as well.  I think this is the current list: and obviously the ones folks choose also might require additional input devices to feed the Garmin the data (like HR, power, cadence, etc.):

Cadence: Cycling. The number of revolutions of the crank arm. Your device must be connected to a cadence accessory for this data to appear.

Cadence - Avg.: Cycling. The average cadence for the current activity.

Cadence - Lap: Cycling. The average cadence for the current lap.

Calories: The amount of total calories burned.

Course Pt. Dist.: The remaining distance to the next point on the course.

Dist. to Dest.: The remaining distance to the final destination. You must be navigating for this data to appear.

Dist. to Go: During a workout or course, the remaining distance when you are using a distance target.

Dist. to Next: The remaining distance to the next waypoint on the route. You must be navigating for this data to appear.

ETA at Destination: The estimated time of day when you will reach the final destination (adjusted to the local time of the destination). You must be navigating for this data to appear.

ETA at Next: The estimated time of day when you will reach the next waypoint on the route (adjusted to the local time of the waypoint). You must be navigating for this data to appear.

Heading: The direction you are moving.

Location at Dest.: The last point on the route or course.

Location at Next: The next point on the route or course.

Time to Dest.: The estimated time remaining before you reach the destination. You must be navigating for this data to appear.

Time to Go: During a workout, the remaining time when you are using a time target.

Time to Next: The estimated time remaining before you reach the next waypoint in the route. You must be navigating for this data to appear.

PCO: The platform center offset. Platform center offset is the location on the pedal platform where force is applied.

PCO - Avg.: The average platform center offset for the current activity.

PCO - Lap: The average platform center offset for the current lap.

Power Phase - L.: The current power phase angle for the left leg. Power phase is the pedal stroke region where positive power is produced.

Power Phase - L. Avg.: The average power phase angle for the left leg for the current activity.

Power Phase - L. Lap: The average power phase angle for the left leg for the current lap.

Power Phase - L. Peak: The current power phase peak angle for the left leg. Power phase peak is the angle range over which the rider produces the peak portion of the driving force.

Power Phase - L. Peak Avg.: The average power phase peak angle for the left leg for the current activity.

Power Phase - L. Peak Lap: The average power phase peak angle for the left leg for the current lap.

Power Phase - R.: The current power phase angle for the right leg. Power phase is the pedal stroke region where positive power is produced.

Power Phase - R. Avg.: The average power phase angle for the right leg for the current activity.

Power Phase - R. Lap: The average power phase angle for the right leg for the current lap.

Power Phase - R. Peak: The current power phase peak angle for the right leg. Power phase peak is the angle range over which the rider produces the peak portion of the driving force.

Power Phase - R. Peak Avg.: The average power phase peak angle for the right leg for the current activity.

Power Phase - R. Peak Lap: The average power phase peak angle for the right leg for the current lap.

Time Seated: The time spent seated while pedaling for the current activity.

Time Seated Lap: The time spent seated while pedaling for the current lap.

Time Standing: The time spent standing while pedaling for the current activity.

Time Standing Lap: The time spent standing while pedaling for the current lap.

Distance: The distance traveled for the current track or activity.

Dist. - Lap: The distance traveled for the current lap.

Dist. - Last Lap: The distance traveled for the last completed lap.

Odometer: A running tally of distance traveled for all trips. This total does not clear when resetting the trip data.

Elevation: The altitude of your current location above or below sea level.

Grade: The calculation of rise (elevation) over run (distance). For example, if for every 3 m (10 ft.) you climb you travel 60 m (200 ft.), the grade is 5%.

Total Ascent: The total elevation distance ascended since the last reset.

Total Descent: The total elevation distance descended since the last reset.

Vertical Speed: The rate of ascent or descent over time.

VS - 30s Avg.: The 30-second moving average of vertical speed.

Di2 Battery Level: The remaining battery power of a Di2 sensor.

Front Gear: The front bike gear from a gear position sensor.

Gear Battery: The battery status of a gear position sensor.

Gear Combo: The current gear combination from a gear position sensor.

Gear Ratio: The number of teeth on the front and rear bike gears, as detected by a gear position sensor.

Gears: The front and rear bike gears from a gear position sensor.

Rear Gear: The rear bike gear from a gear position sensor.

Battery Level: The remaining battery power.

GPS Accuracy: The margin of error for your exact location. For example, your GPS location is accurate to within +/- 3.65 m (12 ft.).

GPS Signal Strength: The strength of the GPS satellite signal.

Sunrise: The time of sunrise based on your GPS position.

Sunset: The time of sunset based on your GPS position.

Temperature: The temperature of the air. Your body temperature affects the temperature sensor.

Time of Day: The time of day based on your current location and time settings (format, time zone, daylight saving time).

Heart Rate: Your heart rate in beats per minute (bpm). Your device must be connected to a compatible heart rate monitor.

HR - %HRR: The percentage of heart rate reserve (maximum heart rate minus resting heart rate).

HR - %Max.: The percentage of maximum heart rate.

HR - Avg.: The average heart rate for the current activity.

HR - Avg. %HRR: The average percentage of heart rate reserve (maximum heart rate minus resting heart rate) for the current activity.

HR - Avg. %Max.: The average percentage of maximum heart rate for the current activity.

HR - Lap: The average heart rate for the current lap.

HR - Lap %HRR: The average percentage of heart rate reserve (maximum heart rate minus resting heart rate) for the current lap.

HR - Lap %Max.: The average percentage of maximum heart rate for the current lap.

HR - Last Lap: The average heart rate for the last completed lap.

HR Graph: A line graph showing your current heart rate zone (1 to 5).

HR Zone: The current range of your heart rate (1 to 5). The default zones are based on your user profile and maximum heart rate (220 minus your age).

Time in Zone: The time elapsed in each heart rate or power zone.

Balance: The current left/right power balance.

Balance - 3s Avg.: The three-second moving average of the left/right power balance.

Balance - 10s Avg.: The 10-second moving average of the left/right power balance.

Balance - 30s Avg.: The 30-second moving average of the left/right power balance.

Balance - Avg.: The average left/right power balance for the current activity.

Balance - Lap: The average left/right power balance for the current lap.

Pedal Smoothness: The measurement of how evenly a rider is applying force to the pedals throughout each pedal stroke.

Power: The current power output in watts. Your device must be connected to a compatible power meter.

Power - %FTP: The current power output as a percentage of functional threshold power.

Power - 3s Avg.: The 3-second moving average of power output.

Power - 10s Avg.: The 10-second moving average of power output.

Power - 30s Avg.: The 30-second moving average of power output.

Power - Avg.: The average power output for the current activity.

Power - IF: The Intensity Factor™ for the current activity.

Power - kJ: The accumulated work performed (power output) in kilojoules.

Power - Lap: The average power output for the current lap.

Power - Lap Max.: The top power output for the current lap.

Power - Last Lap: The average power output for the last completed lap.

Power - Max.: The top power output for the current activity.

Power - NP: The Normalized Power™ for the current activity.

Power - NP Lap: The average Normalized Power for the current lap.

Power - NP Last Lap: The average Normalized Power for the last completed lap.

Power - TSS: The Training Stress Score™ for the current activity.

Power - watts/kg: The amount of power output in watts per kilogram.

Power Zone: The current range of power output (1 to 7) based on your FTP or custom settings.

Torque Effectiveness: The measurement of how efficiently a rider is pedaling.

Speed: The current rate of travel.

Speed - Avg.: The average speed for the current activity.

Speed - Lap: The average speed for the current lap.

Speed - Last Lap: The average speed for the last completed lap.

Speed - Max.: The top speed for the current activity.

Laps: The number of laps completed for the current activity.

Time: The stopwatch time for the current activity.

Time - Avg. Lap: The average lap time for the current activity.

Time - Elapsed: The total time recorded. For example, if you start the timer and run for 10 minutes, then stop the timer for 5 minutes, then start the timer and run for 20 minutes, your elapsed time is 35 minutes.

Time - Lap: The stopwatch time for the current lap.

Time - Last Lap: The stopwatch time for the last completed lap.

Target Power: The target power output during an activity.

Trainer Resistance: The resistance force applied by an indoor trainer.

Calories to Go: During a workout, the remaining calories when you are using a calorie target.

HR to Go: During a workout, the amount you are above or below the heart rate target.

Reps to Go: During a workout, the remaining repetitions.

Workout Step: During a workout, the current step out of the total number of steps.

Battery Status: The remaining battery power of a bike light accessory.

Beam Angle Status: The headlight beam mode.

Light Mode: The light network configuration mode.

Lights Connected: The number of connected lights.

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15 hours ago, donkpow said:

Okay, now my head hurts.

Right around PCO I start to wonder if we have gone too far.  But then I get into the time standing/seated area, and I know we'll be fine.

Tom

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