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Taar talk


Longjohn
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I stopped in the LBS yesterday after my MRI and ultrasound to buy a new helmet and check out his taar selection. He didn’t have any taars I liked but will order some for me. I told him no hurry, I expect to ride many more miles before I change them. I just want to have some on hand when I need them. I paid for the helmet and in comes a guy with a gravel bike to get new taars. The owner of the shop told him he didn’t need a front taar.

I looked at the back taar and the little knobs were getting shorter in the middle of the tread. I told him he could probably get another thousand miles out of that taar. He said he didn’t want to take any chances on losing traction on Kite Hill in the park. I explained that kite hill is smooth blacktop, the knobs actually give you less traction on dry pavement than a road slick. His tire was quite similar to mine except mine has no trace of knobs in the center of the tire.

He left the bike and said give him a call when it’s ready but no hurry. The owner said he tries to save people money when they come in for new tires but don’t need them but people have it in their minds they need new tires so he doesn’t argue. Some people think they need new tires every year.

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I think maybe a bit more care should be taken with tire wear when riding off road but yeah many people would rather be safe than sorry.

I was close to replacing my rear tire on the Ritchey and had even ordered one from my LBS friend when I hit that piece of metal & shredded it. I think a new tire would have suffered the same fate so am glad I rode that worn tire a bit longer.

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On 9/29/2022 at 11:36 AM, Longjohn said:

He left the bike and said give him a call when it’s ready but no hurry. The owner said he tries to save people money when they come in for new tires but don’t need them but people have it in their minds they need new tires so he doesn’t argue. Some people think they need new tires every year.

Until I got a full season on my original road bike under my belt, I wasn't even sure what I liked or wanted in a tire.  Same with the gravel bike and the MTB.  Ideally, folks should ride enough so that they see where the tires on their bike are good and bad, and then aim to get to where they are good to great for all their typical rides. I hated the soft and flat-prone OEM tires that came on the bike.  I used to love my Gatorskins I upgraded to for the road rides, but over time, I realized they were overkill for the majority of my riding, and the 4000s and now 5000s were a better choice - good flat protection and really good road performance.  I could probably find a "great" performing tire, but lose durability and/or flat protection, but I don't need that - extra performance nor extra headache for flats & wear.

From a gravel perspective, I definitely still like the tires that Specialized OEM'ed on the bike (a 38mm Pathfinder 2Bliss ready) and like a little bit more the 43mm Gravelkings I have set up tubeless currently.  Right now, I'm in the "which is better overall" process as I think the Pathfinders, set up tubeless (tubes were the way they came), might be close in "plushness" of the Gravelkings, but slightly faster on the road sections and harder packed gravel.  I really like the wider tires at lower pressures in some of the chunkier gravel sections, but depending upon the weather and last rain & maintenance cycle, one tire set-up might be better than the other.  :dontknow:  But the more I ride gravel, the more I can refine my thoughts, and I should be getting more gravel as the weather conditions get wetter and more suited for some "gravel grinding" instead of road riding.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Another tiring question. I ordered two new tires, I only plan on replacing the back tire because it is the one that is bald. I won’t replace it until the cords are showing or it goes flat. Is there any reason I should replace both tires at the same time?

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On 10/27/2022 at 7:08 PM, Longjohn said:

Another tiring question. I ordered two new tires, I only plan on replacing the back tire because it is the one that is bald. I won’t replace it until the cords are showing or it goes flat. Is there any reason I should replace both tires at the same time?

I would say no, but I'm a newb when it comes to cycling and repairs.  You might want to put the new one on the front and move the current front to the rear.

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2 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

I would say no, but I'm a newb when it comes to cycling and repairs.  You might want to put the new one on the front and move the current front to the rear.

That sounds like a lot of work. It snot like rotating taars on a car. I would have to take the taars off the rims. I haven’t had these taars off their rims yet. I have read that they are a bugger. I bought new taar levers in case they won’t come off with the little plastic levers I have always used. I’m guessing I won’t be changing them until next year because it is getting cold and I am back in the gym and aquatics center now. Probably putting most of my miles on the spin bikes.

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34 minutes ago, Longjohn said:

That sounds like a lot of work. It snot like rotating taars on a car. I would have to take the taars off the rims. I haven’t had these taars off their rims yet. I have read that they are a bugger. I bought new taar levers in case they won’t come off with the little plastic levers I have always used. I’m guessing I won’t be changing them until next year because it is getting cold and I am back in the gym and aquatics center now. Probably putting most of my miles on the spin bikes.

Agreed, it's a pain, but I prefer the nice new tire on the front.

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5 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

Agreed, it's a pain, but I prefer the nice new tire on the front.

I suppose I could mount both new tires and keep the front tire as a spare. My new tires are supposed to be faster. If I just mount one it will be half fast.

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On 11/2/2022 at 4:58 PM, Longjohn said:

Now the question, do I mount them tubeless? I got all the stuff, since I haven’t had ant flats I might just stick with the tubes.

My new bike has tubeless as an option.  I don't want to do it.  I can't imagine being 10 miles from home covered in goo.

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On 11/2/2022 at 3:58 PM, Longjohn said:

Now the question, do I mount them tubeless? I got all the stuff, since I haven’t had ant flats I might just stick with the tubes.

 

17 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

My new bike has tubeless as an option.  I don't want to do it.  I can't imagine being 10 miles from home covered in goo.

I think people miss the reason behind tubeless. The number one reason to set up your tires tubeless is for better traction. This is why mt. bikers run tubeless, traction matters. The number two reason is fewer flats. I think I have had one flat in the last five years. 

I've being running my tires tubeless for more than a decade. I have never been covered in goo. I can't even imagine how that would happen. Seriously, it's like saying I don't eat at restaurants because I don't want to get attacked by an elephant. It could happen, but does it happen often enough to worry about it. 

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On 11/4/2022 at 12:02 PM, dinneR said:

 

I think people miss the reason behind tubeless. The number one reason to set up your tires tubeless is for better traction. This is why mt. bikers run tubeless, traction matters. The number two reason is fewer flats. I think I have had one flat in the last five years. 

I've being running my tires tubeless for more than a decade. I have never been covered in goo. I can't even imagine how that would happen. Seriously, it's like saying I don't eat at restaurants because I don't want to get attacked by an elephant. It could happen, but does it happen often enough to worry about it. 

A llama at Pizza Hut attacked me once!

I haven't ridden as many miles as others, but every year or two I get a massive gash in a tire that no amount of sealant could ever seal.  I imagine the sealant would then spray out, no?  You're right, I have zero experience with this, but don't want to run over a piece of glass on the way to work and have it spray out on me.

If that's not a realistic expectation, I'll consider a new bike and consider tubeless.  I really want to be able to get some rides in each week to and from work.

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1 hour ago, Square Wheels said:

A llama at Pizza Hut attacked me once!

I haven't ridden as many miles as others, but every year or two I get a massive gash in a tire that no amount of sealant could ever seal.  I imagine the sealant would then spray out, no?  You're right, I have zero experience with this, but don't want to run over a piece of glass on the way to work and have it spray out on me.

If that's not a realistic expectation, I'll consider a new bike and consider tubeless.  I really want to be able to get some rides in each week to and from work.

Why were you at pizza hut in the first place?

Tubeless is awesome for Mt biking, gravel, and fatbikes. It's not really necessary for road riding.

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On 11/2/2022 at 2:58 PM, Longjohn said:

Now the question, do I mount them tubeless? I got all the stuff, since I haven’t had ant flats I might just stick with the tubes.

To an earlier question I just replace the worn rear tire about 2-3X more frequently than the front. I don’t rotate.

Having learned the process of tubeless I recommend it but there is a learning curve with set up. 

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17 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

A llama at Pizza Hut attacked me once!

I haven't ridden as many miles as others, but every year or two I get a massive gash in a tire that no amount of sealant could ever seal.  I imagine the sealant would then spray out, no?  You're right, I have zero experience with this, but don't want to run over a piece of glass on the way to work and have it spray out on me.

If that's not a realistic expectation, I'll consider a new bike and consider tubeless.  I really want to be able to get some rides in each week to and from work.

That happened to me once and it didn’t. The gash was big enough that the air rushed out all at once with little sealant spray.  I have gloves in my pack and just dumped the remaining sealant out in some dirt near the road, used a boot & tube and continued the ride.  I came away pretty clean. 

I have seen a fine spray when a puncture is big enough to need a plug.  I suppose that could dirty up your bike but not cover the rider in goo. 

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19 hours ago, dinneR said:

Tubeless is awesome for Mt biking, gravel, and fatbikes. It's not really necessary for road riding.

Not necessary, but not bad, either.  An interesting move we're seeing as gravel bikes become more broadly produced and at the same time more specialized in their focus, is that we're not surprisingly seeing the massive move to an "All-Road" road bike.  IOW, more in line with the geometry and go faster mentality of a road bike, but with the fatter tire options (35 or 38mm) that would have been slammed by roadies just 5 years ago.  Sort of how the Spec Roubaix pushed "plush" road for a while (many similar bikes by other brands - say Giant TCR vs OCR years ago) and now, that type of bike is all over and is seemingly where this all-road direction is headed - ie "plush" can be done with 35 or 38s AND you also get mild to wild gravel capability.  

Our paved trail has a parallel horse/gravel trail, and when work is being done on the paved section, they "groom" the gravel a bit, and it's easy peasy on my 25mm tires.  But if my Tarmac allowed 35 or 38s??? And tubeless? Hell yeah I would have a set ready to roll with those wider and lower PSI tires.  Fun city.

21 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

If that's not a realistic expectation, I'll consider a new bike and consider tubeless.  I really want to be able to get some rides in each week to and from work.

I stick to my "get a gravel bike" for that commute.  But you do have plenty of options that were mentioned in the commute thread.  You could, though, rent a gravel bike - with tubeless set up - and drop the PSI to 30 or whatever, and tackle that commute a few times.  It will be WAY different than the road bike at 100psi.  Think of it as the sort of compliant ride of an MTB that absorbs a lot of the trails bumps through wide tires and low pressure  and then, to that thought, add in the better aero advantage of a road bike and the lower weight.  It really is a nice mix of some of the best bits of the MTB world and the best bits of the road world.  

It will ALWAYS be a horses for courses sort of decision, but for me, the horse for your commuting course is likely a gravel bike.  Another option is a classic "touring" rig, but those are less alluring (but tried and true over many decades of development).

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8 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Not necessary, but not bad, either.  An interesting move we're seeing as gravel bikes become more broadly produced and at the same time more specialized in their focus, is that we're not surprisingly seeing the massive move to an "All-Road" road bike.  IOW, more in line with the geometry and go faster mentality of a road bike, but with the fatter tire options (35 or 38mm) that would have been slammed by roadies just 5 years ago.  Sort of how the Spec Roubaix pushed "plush" road for a while (many similar bikes by other brands - say Giant TCR vs OCR years ago) and now, that type of bike is all over and is seemingly where this all-road direction is headed - ie "plush" can be done with 35 or 38s AND you also get mild to wild gravel capability.  

Our paved trail has a parallel horse/gravel trail, and when work is being done on the paved section, they "groom" the gravel a bit, and it's easy peasy on my 25mm tires.  But if my Tarmac allowed 35 or 38s??? And tubeless? Hell yeah I would have a set ready to roll with those wider and lower PSI tires.  Fun city.

I stick to my "get a gravel bike" for that commute.  But you do have plenty of options that were mentioned in the commute thread.  You could, though, rent a gravel bike - with tubeless set up - and drop the PSI to 30 or whatever, and tackle that commute a few times.  It will be WAY different than the road bike at 100psi.  Think of it as the sort of compliant ride of an MTB that absorbs a lot of the trails bumps through wide tires and low pressure  and then, to that thought, add in the better aero advantage of a road bike and the lower weight.  It really is a nice mix of some of the best bits of the MTB world and the best bits of the road world.  

It will ALWAYS be a horses for courses sort of decision, but for me, the horse for your commuting course is likely a gravel bike.  Another option is a classic "touring" rig, but those are less alluring (but tried and true over many decades of development).

I find it funny that the big brands like Specialized, Giant, and Trek are just now getting into "All-Road." Rawland, Salsa, and Surly have been making these bikes for more than a decade. The big three follow more than they lead. 

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8 hours ago, dinneR said:

Specialized

Hmm.  30+ yrs ago?  Yeah, I think the "hype" is talking about the "new" All Road options, but in reality, Spec or Cannondale or others have been doing it for years.  And, certainly in the meantime, have had all manner of bikes across a broad range of categories.  The hype and the bling, bling is the stuff folks "see" - like a shiny Madone or a slick Venge, but that's hardly the tip of the iceberg. Don't fool yourself that those big companies are just making road or MTB bikes and just now "discovering" anything. They have been in the field for decades.

SpecializedRockComboVideo2021-1.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Hmm.  30+ yrs ago?  Yeah, I think the "hype" is talking about the "new" All Road options, but in reality, Spec or Cannondale or others have been doing it for years.  And, certainly in the meantime, have had all manner of bikes across a broad range of categories.  The hype and the bling, bling is the stuff folks "see" - like a shiny Madone or a slick Venge, but that's hardly the tip of the iceberg. Don't fool yourself that those big companies are just making road or MTB bikes and just now "discovering" anything. They have been in the field for decades.

SpecializedRockComboVideo2021-1.jpg

Cannondale came out with their first Slate years ago too but I see what @dinneR is getting at.  The big three dabbled in the gravel/off road adventure genre where as the smaller brands like Salsa built their platform of bikes around  it.  Being a cyclocross fan I remember ages ago when the warbird went from a cross to a gravel bike.  WTF!?!?  I didn’t see the tides changing…  And didn’t Specialized kill that bike when sales lagged?  The public wasn’t ready for it.

But Salsa also isn’t trying to be all things for all people like the big three either. 

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4 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Cannondale came out with their first Slate years ago too but I see what @dinneR is getting at.  The big three dabbled in the gravel/off road adventure genre where as the smaller brands like Salsa built their platform of bikes around  it.  Being a cyclocross fan I remember ages ago when the warbird went from a cross to a gravel bike.  WTF!?!?  I didn’t see the tides changing…  And didn’t Specialized kill that bike when sales lagged?  The public wasn’t ready for it.

But Salsa also isn’t trying to be all things for all people like the big three either. 

I see where he is going too, but at the same time see that it isn't as simple as the big brands like Specialized, Giant, and Trek are just now getting into "All-Road."  They've been there, they see what sells, they play with new ideas, and work with how things "are" vs what they necessarily want things to be.  

You're correct that "The public wasn’t ready for it." at the scale a large manufacturer wants/needs them to be.  So, sure, niche and smaller brands can ALWAYS pivot to shorter production runs and/or ONE OFF bikes custom built to your specs and/or ideas.  Spec, Giant, Cannondale, Trek, etc. don't build folding bikes. They don't build travel/coupler bikes.  They don't build titanium bikes.  Yet there are LOTS of manufacturers that do - or will for a price.

Bikes are a HUGE and WIDE market.  Like vehicles or shoes, no single brand is gonna satisfy all your and everyone else's needs especially.  We should be embracing it when more and/or better options come to market.  Competition can be very good for a market (and thus for you and me).

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1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

Hmm.  30+ yrs ago?  Yeah, I think the "hype" is talking about the "new" All Road options, but in reality, Spec or Cannondale or others have been doing it for years.  And, certainly in the meantime, have had all manner of bikes across a broad range of categories.  The hype and the bling, bling is the stuff folks "see" - like a shiny Madone or a slick Venge, but that's hardly the tip of the iceberg. Don't fool yourself that those big companies are just making road or MTB bikes and just now "discovering" anything. They have been in the field for decades.

SpecializedRockComboVideo2021-1.jpg

Where did they get the idea? Charlie?

Fatbikes? Bikepacking? If Sinyard has an original idea, he trademarks and sues everyone who copies it. 

1987 Cunningham Racer mountain bike at classic Cycle | Classic Cycle Bainbridge Island Kitsap County

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12 minutes ago, dinneR said:

Where did they get the idea? Charlie?

Fatbikes? Bikepacking? If Sinyard has an original idea, he trademarks and sues everyone who copies it. 

1987 Cunningham Racer mountain bike at classic Cycle | Classic Cycle Bainbridge Island Kitsap County

I guess I don't see why you're thinking MAJOR brands should be the same as MINOR brands.  BOTH have their places. BOTH have their strengths and weaknesses.  BOTH move the cycling market in new directions.  It's not an EITHER-OR, it's a which one fits best, and if you love having the blinders of "gotta be Salsa or nothing", that's your loss.  The market is large, and I'm happy we have all the players.  I definitely wouldn't think folks would like a world without Specialized, Trek, Cannondale, Giant, Shimano, SRAM, Campy, and QBP, but maybe they would? Of course, those folks don't like cycling, so that's understandable. :D

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Just now, Razors Edge said:

I guess I don't see where you thinking MAJOR brands should be the same as MINOR brands.  BOTH have their places. BOTH have their strengths and weaknesses.  BOTH move the cycling market in new directions.  It's not an EITHER-OR, it's a which one fits best, and if you love having the blinders of "gotta be Salsa or nothing", that's your loss.  The market is large, and I'm happy we have all the players.  I definitely wouldn't think folks would like a world without Specialized, Trek, Cannondale, Giant, Shimano, SRAM, Campy, and QBP, but maybe they would? Of course, those folks don't like cycling, so that's understandable. :D

Wow, there's a lot of crap you just said. Stick to the facts. I never said any of those things. Blinders? Seriously? 

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8 minutes ago, dinneR said:

Wow, there's a lot of crap you just said. Stick to the facts. I never said any of those things. Blinders? Seriously? 

I'm just pointing out you have a weird obsession with pretending Spec or other big brands don't cover a BROAD swath of the market - both when it is established, but also as it emerges. Spec made that bike I mentioned over 30 years ago.  Is that "late" to the All Road game???  Is that "just now" getting into the All Road game?  Maybe???  They must have been late getting into the MTB game too.  

The facts remain that MANY big manufacturers, including (especially) Specialized, have been and are part of the All Road or other markets for decades.  The big brands and the small brands have similar yet wildly different business needs. A one man shop can survive building a custom bike a week, but Trek needs to build thousands and across price points from $350 to $15,000.  Is the one man shop "better"? Does it even matter?  I just like a thriving bike industry with lots of options for me as the consumer. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

I'm just pointing out you have a weird obsession with pretending Spec or other big brands don't cover a BROAD swath of the market - both when it is established, but also as it emerges. Spec made that bike I mentioned over 30 years ago.  Is that "late" to the All Road game???  Is that "just now" getting into the All Road game?  Maybe???  They must have been late getting into the MTB game too.  

The facts remain that MANY big manufacturers, including (especially) Specialized, have been and are part of the All Road or other markets for decades.  The big brands and the small brands have similar yet wildly different business needs. A one man shop can survive building a custom bike a week, but Trek needs to build thousands and across price points from $350 to $15,000.  Is the one man shop "better"? Does it even matter?  I just like a thriving bike industry with lots of options for me as the consumer. 

 

Weird obsession? Seriously, quit making shit up.

Here are some facts. I have never said it's Salsa or nothing. I bought a Trek in April. I've owned a Cannondale and a Specialized.

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1 minute ago, dinneR said:

Weird obsession? Seriously, quit making shit up.

Here are some facts. I have never said it's Salsa or nothing. I bought a Trek in April. I've owned a Cannondale and a Specialized.

Then quit making shit up about Spec or Trek or Cannondale being late to the All Road game.  Seems that's either purposeful ignoring of reality or maybe just something you weren't aware of?  

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And guys like Jobs Brandt & Tom Ritchey were riding their road bikes off road in the 1970’s so even Salsa & Charlie were late to the game! 😂

I think it’s an interesting dynamic of big brands be all to all and the specialization of the smaller brands.  Kudos to Salsa for reading the market shift before it shifted (or maybe they just got lucky).  I do wonder what the smaller brands like salsa do in a few years when the market & industry shifts to something else.

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2 hours ago, ChrisL said:

And guys like Jobs Brandt & Tom Ritchey were riding their road bikes off road in the 1970’s so even Salsa & Charlie were late to the game! 😂

I think it’s an interesting dynamic of big brands be all to all and the specialization of the smaller brands.  Kudos to Salsa for reading the market shift before it shifted (or maybe they just got lucky).  I do wonder what the smaller brands like salsa do in a few years when the market & industry shifts to something else.

I used to ride with the head of Salsa. They were making pretty traditional bikes(road, mt, cx) at the time. He said the bikes were nice, but none of the staff rode them. They were also competing with the big guys. They decided to switch gears and started making bikes like the Fargo and Mukluk. It worked for them. The big players followed a few years later, though I think it was about a decade before anyone released a bike like the Fargo.

They seem to be fine. If you look at the GDMR bikes. Salsa dominates. There are now more smaller companies competing with them so I imagine every new frame cuts into their sales.

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