Cannondale is deviating from its roots

[bikeman564™]

that's my prediction. Here's the reason. Cannondale offered the CAAD series w/ high end components. When I bought my CAAD 10 in 2012, I chose Ultegra. One model up had DA...well w/ some Ultegra bits. And my CAAD X has ultegra, from 2018. Now the CAAD 13 tops out at 105 Di2, and the CAADX is no longer available, but the carbon superX is. So I predict they'll probably get out of making aluminum bikes Providing I'm still alive, I'll probably buy one more good bike...maybe. Not sure what it'll be. But one thing it will not be is carbon  

Then I found this article, which I agree with. Specially the last two sentences "I hope to walk into a shop one day and see a brand-new Cannondale CAAD14 with an all-new Ultegra mechanical shifting system and rim brakes. But if that day never comes, it will be because there weren’t enough other people who wanted what I wanted. I may not like it, but I must be okay with it."

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a37245788/caad-rim-dead/

 

[ChrisL]

1 minute ago, bikeman564™ said:

that's my prediction. Here's the reason. Cannondale offered the CAAD series w/ high end components. When I bought my CAAD 10 in 2012, I chose Ultegra. One model up had DA...well w/ some Ultegra bits. And my CAAD X has ultegra, from 2018. Now the CAAD 13 tops out at 105 Di2, and the CAADX is no longer available, but the carbon superX is. So I predict they'll probably get out of making aluminum bikes Providing I'm still alive, I'll probably buy one more good bike...maybe. Not sure what it'll be. But one thing it will not be is carbon  

Then I found this article, which I agree with. Specially the last two sentences "I hope to walk into a shop one day and see a brand-new Cannondale CAAD14 with an all-new Ultegra mechanical shifting system and rim brakes. But if that day never comes, it will be because there weren’t enough other people who wanted what I wanted. I may not like it, but I must be okay with it."

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a37245788/caad-rim-dead/

Why the aversion to carbon?  I know you are a big C’dale guy but would you consider another brand to get the material/bike of choice?

[Razors Edge ★]

6 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

CAAD14 with an all-new Ultegra mechanical shifting system and rim brakes.

Does Shimano make an Ultregra with rim brakes gruppo?  I'm pretty sure even 105 is now disc only.  

I think Shimano has forced Cannondale to move on.

[bikeman564™]

Just now, ChrisL said:

Why the aversion to carbon?  I know you are a big C’dale guy but would you consider another brand to get the material/bike of choice?

Prone to fracture. I would definitely buy another brand to keep w/ an alloy. Another thing I don't like about modern bikes, more so w/ carbon, is proprietary head sets/stem, seat post. I want a bike that will accept normal off the shelf components. Plus it looks much better IMO.

[bikeman564™]

Just now, Razors Edge said:

Does Shimano make an Ultregra with rim brakes gruppo?  I'm pretty sure even 105 is now disc only.  

I think Shimano has forced Cannondale to move on.

Good point. Unfortunately this is true. However, they could still offer Ultegra, or DA..but they don't. Or offer the frame as a stand alone like they used to.

[bikeman564™]

@Razors Edgesince the CAAD X is newer, I thought of selling off the 10, and buying a set of wheels for the X and using it as my road & gravel bike.

[ChrisL]

1 minute ago, bikeman564™ said:

Prone to fracture. I would definitely buy another brand to keep w/ an alloy. Another thing I don't like about modern bikes, more so w/ carbon, is proprietary head sets/stem, seat post. I want a bike that will accept normal off the shelf components. Plus it looks much better IMO.

Ah, gotcha!  I actually like the clean no cable look but I’ll likely never buy another road/gravel bike unless something happens to the Ritchey. 

[bikeman564™]

Just now, ChrisL said:

Ah, gotcha!  I actually like the clean no cable look but I’ll likely never buy another road/gravel bike unless something happens to the Ritchey. 

I don't mind internal cables per se, but  I don't need cables routed thru the bar/stem/frame. Some bike manufacturers had frame cracking issues because of this. They got to radical.  My CAAD 10 is all exposed baby

I guy I know, who moved to NC, bought a Trek Project 1. It was first time I seen one of these in person. It looked like a track bike because there were no cables or wires exposed. PITA to wrench on I bet. I also like working on my own bike. Bike tech seemed to take a steep slope up.

[Razors Edge ★]

3 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

Good point. Unfortunately this is true. However, they could still offer Ultegra, or DA..but they don't. Or offer the frame as a stand alone like they used to.

Come to the dark side!  The new Allez comes as a frame or with a nice mechanical 105 build (or even fancier Red eTap version).

[bikeman564™]

8 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Come to the dark side!  The new Allez comes as a frame or with a nice mechanical 105 build (or even fancier Red eTap version).

 

 

Looks good I don't like sloping top tubes

Seriously w/ SRAM, never will I buy their product again. They ruined me a/ the Guide R brake problem. I don't trust them.

[Razors Edge ★]

12 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

Prone to fracture. I would definitely buy another brand to keep w/ an alloy. Another thing I don't like about modern bikes, more so w/ carbon, is proprietary head sets/stem, seat post. I want a bike that will accept normal off the shelf components. Plus it looks much better IMO.

My hope is that the new stuff keeps improving things, but that the variety also stays available.  In general, I KNOW there will always be small brand options in aluminum, steel, and Ti, so you will be able to get a frame you like - just likely not through some of the "Big Guys".  

I also think, despite the earned reputation of Dura Ace and Ultegra, 105 long ago matched their reputation for great gruppos, and the trickle down to Tiagra (or lower) is happening steadily. Tiagra in 2023 is far better than anything 20 yrs ago (other than weight).  It just works.  My mechanical GRX stuff is just great, too.  The Shimano systems (mechanical and Di2) are just "dialed in" and nearly bulletproof for riders like you and me.

[Randomguy]

50 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

Prone to fracture. I would definitely buy another brand to keep w/ an alloy. Another thing I don't like about modern bikes, more so w/ carbon, is proprietary head sets/stem, seat post. I want a bike that will accept normal off the shelf components. Plus it looks much better IMO.

Prone to fracture?  It takes a LOT of force to fracture carbon, you are way more likely to completely buckle an aluminum frame before you can get a small break in a carbon frame, plus you are in dent danger with aluminum.  Plus, I wouldn't want a rim brake bike on the dariest dare that there is, rim brakes are dead and buried for good reason.

Also, whilst there are a lot of uppity carbon bikes out there with totally integrated everything, my carbon bike easily accepted a Bontrager XXX carbon 27.2 post I had from a previous bike (I made sure of that because I run a zero-offset post).  I wouldn't want to change out the cables and housing myself since it is mostly internal and undoubtedly a pain in the ass, but you don't really have to do that a whole lot.

I do wish it had an old-school sealed and english-threaded BB, though, but I hadn't had any problems with the funky BB setup the bike came with.  

[bikeman564™]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

My hope is that the new stuff keeps improving things, but that the variety also stays available.  In general, I KNOW there will always be small brand options in aluminum, steel, and Ti, so you will be able to get a frame you like - just likely not through some of the "Big Guys".  

I also think, despite the earned reputation of Dura Ace and Ultegra, 105 long ago matched their reputation for great gruppos, and the trickle down to Tiagra (or lower) is happening steadily. Tiagra in 2023 is far better than anything 20 yrs ago (other than weight).  It just works.  My mechanical GRX stuff is just great, too.  The Shimano systems (mechanical and Di2) are just "dialed in" and nearly bulletproof for riders like you and me.

It's the properties of carbon. It's very strong in a linear direction, but it can't take an impact. And, it doesn't yield, it just breaks because there is virtually no elongation, as opposed to metal.

I agree w/ the trickle down effect. I've used Ultegra for years. Its in the middle of over priced & budget If Cannondale offered the CAAD 10 w/ full DA, I would of bought just because I can.

[Allen ★]

You can have dibs on my Salsa if you ever get into touring. 

[ChrisL]

8 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Prone to fracture?  It takes a LOT of force to fracture carbon, you are way more likely to completely buckle an aluminum frame before you can break a carbon frame, plus you are in dent danger with aluminum.  Plus, I wouldn't want a rim brake bike on the dariest dare that there is, rim brakes are dead and buried for good   

All that makes perfect sense but I don’t think there is any reasonable rationale that can convince someone who knows what they like & want from getting what they like & want….

 

 

[Razors Edge ★]

4 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

It's the properties of carbon. It's very strong in a linear direction, but it can't take an impact. And, it doesn't yield, it just breaks because there is virtually no elongation, as opposed to metal.

I like the "choose your poison" sort of bike variety we now have.  For the most part, we can find the frame and gruppo we want, but sometimes the "market" forces some companies to make decisions - usually more along sales numbers lines - and like the comment "there weren’t enough other people who wanted what I wanted" makes clear, that's a market trend thing too.  With selling just frames, at least you get the option to build it the way you like (within limits), so it is nuts for Cannondale to not at least offer frames instead of whole bikes. I think Trek also does that   I like Specialized always having frames as options - usually S-Works, but often others.  

The thing with carbon, and you're correct about the vulnerability to impacts, is that 20+ yrs in, and I think almost everyone I know who replaces a CF bike is because they are just ready for another new CF bike, not as a replacement for a broken CF bike. 

[Randomguy]

6 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

All that makes perfect sense but I don’t think there is any reasonable rationale that can convince someone who knows what they like & want from getting what they like & want….

 

All true.  Most people end up preferring carbon frames after owning them, so there is that.  Aluminum does feel light and lively, though, but the micro-impacts Shirley take a toll with aluminum frames.  I guess bigger tires and larger air volumes can take care of a lot of that, though.

What about a custom frame?  Someone out there will make an aluminum frame with mid-eighties geometry that'd probably be pretty sweet.  I would probably just look for a nice used carbon bike with disc brakes if it were me, and then try and fracture that frame somehow, just for kicks and to be able to say "I told you so".

[Razors Edge ★]

3 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

All that makes perfect sense but I don’t think there is any reasonable rationale that can convince someone who knows what they like & want from getting what they like & want….

 

I HOPE not.  If you're spending $1,000 or $10,000, you better get the bike that you want!  Hell, I'd argue, at this point, rather than argue on frame material, folks often are arguing over saddle bags or not, using a handle bar bag on a road bike, pedal choice, color schemes, saddle height/bar drop, or tire width!

We have tons to disagree on!

[groupw]

My LBS owner/friend started steering riders to 105 group instead of Ultegra a few years back. He said newer Ultegra groups seemed to need tuning more often while new 105 sets stay tuned better. 
My Stradalli had the last Ultegra group he really liked. The shifting is amazing and consistent and the brakes are the best rim brakes I’ve ever used. When the time comes for a less aggressive posture, I’ll look for a carbon frame gravel bike, 105 w/disc brakes. But that’s for me. 

[Randomguy]

1 hour ago, bikeman564™ said:

But one thing it will not be is carbon

You really ought to forget all this bike stuff and get a car.

[sheep_herder ★]

We cannot recycle plastic in Miles City any longer. We have to take it to Billings.

[Razors Edge ★]

2 minutes ago, sheep_herder said:

We cannot recycle plastic in Miles City any longer. We have to take it to Billings.

My guess is Billing burns it as fuel. 

[ChrisL]

36 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

All true.  Most people end up preferring carbon frames after owning them, so there is that.  Aluminum does feel light and lively, though, but the micro-impacts Shirley take a toll with aluminum frames.  I guess bigger tires and larger air volumes can take care of a lot of that, though.

What about a custom frame?  Someone out there will make an aluminum frame with mid-eighties geometry that'd probably be pretty sweet.  I would probably just look for a nice used carbon bike with disc brakes if it were me, and then try and fracture that frame somehow, just for kicks and to be able to say "I told you so".

I found myself comparing every bike since my steel bike to my steel bike. I had aluminum 3 times and Carbon and eventually went back to steel as none of the materials I tried replicated the steel ride I was looking for.  Had I not had the financial resources to buy the Ritchey I would have been fine with carbon & aluminum but I’m finally on a bike that has the feel I was looking for. 

[sheep_herder ★]

1 hour ago, ChrisL said:

Why the aversion to carbon?  I know you are a big C’dale guy but would you consider another brand to get the material/bike of choice?

He can always go custom. Lots of good builders out there.

[bikeman564™]

55 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

What about a custom frame? 

 

6 minutes ago, sheep_herder said:

He can always go custom. Lots of good builders out there.

I've pondered this. Not sure what the future holds. I'm hoping the frames I have outlive the components.

I have a 1989 schwinn aluminum that I upgraded everything to Ultegra, except crank which is DA. The frame is still fine. Problem is the 7 speed drive train is obsolete. Shimano quit making 7 speed HG cassettes, so there is a knock-off brand on there now.

[bikeman564™]

32 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

You really ought to forget all this bike stuff and get a car.

its just a fad anyway

[ChrisL]

55 minutes ago, groupw said:

My LBS owner/friend started steering riders to 105 group instead of Ultegra a few years back. He said newer Ultegra groups seemed to need tuning more often while new 105 sets stay tuned better. 
My Stradalli had the last Ultegra group he really liked. The shifting is amazing and consistent and the brakes are the best rim brakes I’ve ever used. When the time comes for a less aggressive posture, I’ll look for a carbon frame gravel bike, 105 w/disc brakes. But that’s for me. 

When I bought the Ritchey I was perfectly fine with 105 but it just wasn’t available at that time.  I ended up getting Ultegra.  The bike I upgraded from had 105 mechanical disc and I could tell zero difference in shift quality.  Braking was a huge difference…

[bikeman564™]

3 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

When I bought the Ritchey I was perfectly fine with 105 but it just wasn’t available at that time.  I ended up getting Ultegra.  The bike I upgraded from had 105 mechanical disc and I could tell zero difference in shift quality.  Braking was a huge difference…

my CAAD 10 has Ultegra 6700, and my CAAD X has (I think) 6800. It's definitely a newer generation. The shifting is so much better, it's like night & day. Specially the front derailleur. Whatever Shimano did was great. The lever movement is easier too.

[Parsnip Totin Jack ★]

In 2011 I bought a retirement gift to myself. Custom Ti frame and fork. Drivetrain was Campagnolo Chorus with Record shifters. The shifters were only $100 more than the Chorus and since most cyclists are lazy they look at the shifters to determine the drivetrain. Since then, I had to replace the derailleurs and bought Super Record. So I’ve got chorus cranks, rim brakes, record shifters, and super record derailleurs. I changed wheels from Mavic to White Industries T-11 hubs with Hed rims and Sapim X-ray spokes. I wish I had disc brakes vs rim but I don’t own a modified De Lorean.