Shortage of pilots

[shootingstar]

So Wilbur can maybe give us the lowdown about pilot and future career..has the shine rubbed off a lot?  

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pilot-shortage-super-t-atac-wellington-waterloo-1.4471354

[maddmaxx ★]

One potential aspect.  Through the 90's approximately 80% of airline pilots had received their training in the military.  Today that number has partially reversed to 60% with civilian flight training.  Perhaps there are fewer military trained pilots available?

[Wilbur ★]

I am surprised that the writer seems to think glamour plays a part of the choice to become a pilot.  That has never entered the minds of many although the shine is off the penny as a career.  When I started at an airline, we were scheduled for 68-70 hours per month in the flight deck.  That is now up to 85.  That doesn't sound like much but there are a lot of schedule changes, extension of duty days, cancelled and delayed flights, preparation time and at some airports, the 45 minutes to and hour just getting to the gate after your hour in the crew room.

The days are up to 18 hours long because of increased aircraft range which leads to medical issues and constant fatigue.  The food served up front has become garbage, many hotels reduced in calibre, rest time shorter, crew pairings longer, days off fewer while pay has plummeted.  

The airlines were for middle to upper middle class travel with bus and trains picking up the lower classes. The airlines have become Greyhound and rates reduced to where welfare recipients can afford to travel by air.  The pressure to reduce fares relates directly to pay schedules and where unions don't give, the routes are given to budget carriers often packaged as "United Express, Connector, Light or an attempt at a cool name like Jazz or Ted or Wow.  

The job was on par with doctors and business leaders when I started and is now at par with limo and bus drivers.  The public largely receives pilots with the same respect.  

Deregulation was the final nail in the coffin for the glory days of aviation both as a passenger and pilot.  Aviation coined the term "Race to the bottom" when it comes to service and product delivered, cost and salaries.  

This is why I opted to leave airline flying and move to corporate flying.  Now corporate is being diminished to taxi driver level as management companies have taken over as the norm for operations as regulations make the operation of private flight departments cost prohibitive.  The only way for management companies to compete is to reduce costs such as salary and benefits.

All this while training costs explode and entry level salaries plummet.  It isn't pretty.  The upside, is that movement up ward is now swift.  When I started, entry position was second officer, a non-flying position where one could spend 6-8 years before getting promoted to first officer.  The first 2 years were low pay.  Typically around mid 30K but only for two years when you went from starting pay to formula pay. After 2 years, you could expect 90-100k.  This was in the early 1980's You would spend another 6-8 years there before moving to the command chair.  Pilots would have 12-15,000 flight hours before making Captain.  They would be almost 30 years into their career before making Captain where they finally made big money but that wouldn't last long as retirement age was 60.  Captain salary back then was 240-290K They were still well above average though and typically would have niceties like vacation homes in Palm Springs or the likes.

By comparison, kids are now hired by regional and mainline carriers right out of flight school.  They are placed in a job they are not qualified to function in and paid as little as 18,000 per year.  Promotions to Captain comes in 2-3 years but the salaries are between 75  and 100,00 and you can spend your life in that pay scale.  

The only positive left is the ability to see the world and operate cool equipment.  Neither of those pay the mortgage though.

Now when kids ask about the career, especially in corporate flying, I tell them to aspire to the back seats, not the front.  The money, even as mid level managers, sits in the back. 

Not much to attract the best and brightest these days. 

 

[maddmaxx ★]

I guess that you, like me, should be happy that we had the bulk of our careers when we did.  

[Wilbur ★]

6 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I guess that you, like me, should be happy that we had the bulk of our careers when we did.  

Absolutely. 

[JerrySTL ★]

3 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

One potential aspect.  Through the 90's approximately 80% of airline pilots had received their training in the military.  Today that number has partially reversed to 60% with civilian flight training.  Perhaps there are fewer military trained pilots available?

The US Air Force is critically short on pilots and aircraft mechanics. The operational pace from being at war for many years is burning out people. Plus there are plenty of jobs with the airlines. I'm pretty sure that the same goes for the Navy, Marine, and Army aviation.

And there are fewer military pilots. The number of military aircraft, especially fighters, is about a third of the number during the Vietnam War. Same goes with the pilots.

[shootingstar]

Didn't realize that the starting pay for junior pilots would be low for passenger aircraft at this time.

Anyway, some of us could say we've seen a lot and experienced some big changes in our respective professions over the past few decades.

[TrentonMakes]

This thread is interesting.... my son has a history of developing an interest in something and then learning everything he can about it, and right now aircraft is where his mind is much of the time.  My wife has looked into the Civil Air Patrol at the Trenton airport - he seems interested.  I'm amazed when he looks skyward at planes that are starting to descend toward Newark - 45 miles away - and identify them.  

Sometimes he moves on from these areas of interest, sometimes he doesn't.  I wonder if he has visions of flying planes when he grows up.  And if he does I hope it's not a career path that leaves him disillusioned.

Last night we were on Google Earth looking at the aircraft "graveyard" in Arizona, which I learned about with recent stories about the 747's retirement.  But of course he already knew all about it.  Even from this view he knows which planes are which.

 

[Airehead]

24 minutes ago, TrentonMakes said:

This thread is interesting.... my son has a history of developing an interest in something and then learning everything he can about it, and right now aircraft is where his mind is much of the time.  My wife has looked into the Civil Air Patrol at the Trenton airport - he seems interested.  I'm amazed when he looks skyward at planes that are starting to descend toward Newark - 45 miles away - and identify them.  

Sometimes he moves on from these areas of interest, sometimes he doesn't.  I wonder if he has visions of flying planes when he grows up.  And if he does I hope it's not a career path that leaves him disillusioned.

Last night we were on Google Earth looking at the aircraft "graveyard" in Arizona, which I learned about with recent stories about the 747's retirement.  But of course he already knew all about it.  Even from this view he knows which planes are which.

 

If you want to chat about Civil Air Patrol let me know.  It is a great boost for many young people.

[Airehead]

The New Jersey Wing of CAP is in Trenton.  (NJWG.cap.gov is the local website.)

This is a good thing as wing headquarters tend to have serious volunteers.  How old is your son?  He will likely qualify for orientation fights in a small plane.  There are also lots of really cool space, aviation, etc... Learning experiences.  He can earn awards for learning knowledge and being able to apply these facts.  CAP also has a pretty durn good emergency services crew in most places and he can learn to be a ground team member or radio operator, etc...

As the wife of a unit commander--- wait now ex unit commander doing other work---I have seen many young people find direction and pride through CAP--- and lots get into service academies too.  @AllieRN May have an opinion on this if she is around.

There are lots of cool jobs in aviation that don't include being a pilot. @TrentonMakes would be like to be an aerospace engineer?

 

[TrentonMakes]

I wonder if he'd like something like that. He is inscrutable sometimes. Thanks very much for the information! 

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

 

Just think about this for a moment, if you will...

 

 

If you ran an electric, water, and sewer to each one of those planes you could turn the whole place into an upscale 'mobile home' park. 

So what if they're not the same shape as a traditional mobile home - they've all got wheels under them, don't they?

[Razors Edge ★]

12 hours ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Just think about this for a moment, if you will...

If you ran an electric, water, and sewer to each one of those planes you could turn the whole place into an upscale 'mobile home' park. 

So what if they're not the same shape as a traditional mobile home - they've all got wheels under them, don't they?

Or, solve the homeless problem in that area and give the plane owners a heckuva a tax break.

Tom

[Wilbur ★]

They are worth more in spares and metal reclamation. 

[Indy]

Well, I could use a job, I can drive about anything, so pretty sure I could learn to fly a plane.

They do on the job training for that, right?

[Wilbur ★]

5 minutes ago, Indy said:

I can drive about anything,

Can you drive a hard bargain?

 

If so, your type is needed. 

[maddmaxx ★]

16 minutes ago, Indy said:

Well, I could use a job, I can drive about anything, so pretty sure I could learn to fly a plane.

They do on the job training for that, right?

You can drive, but life has it's ups and downs.

[Randomguy]

On 1/10/2018 at 5:56 AM, Wilbur said:

I am surprised that the writer seems to think glamour plays a part of the choice to become a pilot.  That has never entered the minds of many although the shine is off the penny as a career.  When I started at an airline, we were scheduled for 68-70 hours per month in the flight deck.  That is now up to 85.  That doesn't sound like much but there are a lot of schedule changes, extension of duty days, cancelled and delayed flights, preparation time and at some airports, the 45 minutes to and hour just getting to the gate after your hour in the crew room.

The days are up to 18 hours long because of increased aircraft range which leads to medical issues and constant fatigue.  The food served up front has become garbage, many hotels reduced in calibre, rest time shorter, crew pairings longer, days off fewer while pay has plummeted.  

The airlines were for middle to upper middle class travel with bus and trains picking up the lower classes. The airlines have become Greyhound and rates reduced to where welfare recipients can afford to travel by air.  The pressure to reduce fares relates directly to pay schedules and where unions don't give, the routes are given to budget carriers often packaged as "United Express, Connector, Light or an attempt at a cool name like Jazz or Ted or Wow.  

The job was on par with doctors and business leaders when I started and is now at par with limo and bus drivers.  The public largely receives pilots with the same respect.  

Deregulation was the final nail in the coffin for the glory days of aviation both as a passenger and pilot.  Aviation coined the term "Race to the bottom" when it comes to service and product delivered, cost and salaries.  

This is why I opted to leave airline flying and move to corporate flying.  Now corporate is being diminished to taxi driver level as management companies have taken over as the norm for operations as regulations make the operation of private flight departments cost prohibitive.  The only way for management companies to compete is to reduce costs such as salary and benefits.

All this while training costs explode and entry level salaries plummet.  It isn't pretty.  The upside, is that movement up ward is now swift.  When I started, entry position was second officer, a non-flying position where one could spend 6-8 years before getting promoted to first officer.  The first 2 years were low pay.  Typically around mid 30K but only for two years when you went from starting pay to formula pay. After 2 years, you could expect 90-100k.  This was in the early 1980's You would spend another 6-8 years there before moving to the command chair.  Pilots would have 12-15,000 flight hours before making Captain.  They would be almost 30 years into their career before making Captain where they finally made big money but that wouldn't last long as retirement age was 60.  Captain salary back then was 240-290K They were still well above average though and typically would have niceties like vacation homes in Palm Springs or the likes.

By comparison, kids are now hired by regional and mainline carriers right out of flight school.  They are placed in a job they are not qualified to function in and paid as little as 18,000 per year.  Promotions to Captain comes in 2-3 years but the salaries are between 75  and 100,00 and you can spend your life in that pay scale.  

The only positive left is the ability to see the world and operate cool equipment.  Neither of those pay the mortgage though.

Now when kids ask about the career, especially in corporate flying, I tell them to aspire to the back seats, not the front.  The money, even as mid level managers, sits in the back. 

Not much to attract the best and brightest these days. 

 

I think a lot of industries have become like this, working you more and more for less and less.  Gotta keep squeezing when wages are down across the board, because where are you going to go?  When wealth concentrates and wages stagnate, your options are fewer and farther between if you want to improve your station.  Go from your crappy job with low pay to a competitors crappy job with low pay?  Maybe, until they can automate your position.

What are the crack whores going to do when sex robots take their place, for example?  I don't think we can handle the world when crack whores are out of work, too.