i had that talk with the boss

[Dottleshead ★]

4 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

But how do you know this? Severance is like bonus and is at the whim of leadership.  They are not legally obligated to give a severance and if your bonus got hosed, severances could too.

I live by the motto of more options are better than less options.  Starting to look for other opportunities gives you more options.  You may find there is nothing out there better than your current situation but at least you know.  Or maybe you’ll find something better.

But unless you start that process you will never know.  If I were in your shoes (and I had been) I’d be looking…

 

41 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

I also don't trust companies.  It's in writing that if I'm laid off, they will pay me severance.  But there are ways around that. 

Definitely. It's all a crap shoot.

[Razors Edge ★]

@Dottleshead

How close are you to 62?  You're 58???  Maybe a stretch but this video explains why 62 might be you end zone so you can spike the ball and call it a game!

 

[Dottleshead ★]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

@Dottleshead

How close are you to 62?  You're 58???  Maybe a stretch but this video explains why 62 might be you end zone so you can spike the ball and call it a game!

I'll be 57 in June.

[Razors Edge ★]

14 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

I'll be 57 in June.

5 years to get your ducks in a row!  62 makes sense!

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, Razors Edge said:

5 years to get your ducks in a row!  62 makes sense!

I've been working with my Financial Planner.  They are saying I can step away at 63.  But that also assumes I'm dumping money into my 401K plan at 25% of my salary for the next 6 years.  I am getting into good shape and my dad is into his early 90s.  I can achieve that but I'd be satisfied if I make it into my 80s.  I don't have kids and I'm not leaving my money to any family members.  So I can't take any of this shit with me nor do I need to leave it with anybody.  The main issue I have is the one most people in this country face -- health care.  If I were to bow out before 62, how the hell am I going to pay for it?  (Panama anyone??).  So I am considering maybe take on the role of a software trainer or something.  Everyone I come into contact with says I missed my calling and should have been a teacher.  Pays sucks but I think the stress is less (right??) and hopefully I get to leave my work at work.  As @Kirby mentioned, it'd give me living money and insurance while giving my current assets time to mature.  Look ,it'd be better if I worked until at least 62 but if I'm to be honest, I'm getting tired of the game.  For 30 years, I've been an individual contributor in this industry and I'm quite proud of that.  I know very few who have done so.

[Randomguy]

18 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

I don't have kids and I'm not leaving my money to any family members.

Can you put me in your will?  I wouldn't ask if I didn't want it, you see.

[Dottleshead ★]

I should mention my wife will pull in at very least over a thousand dollars in SS at 62 that was not calculated in my assessment from my projected retirement age.  That's going to help. It won't make up for the money I'd be putting into the market via 401K for the next 6 years but it takes some stress off.

[Dottleshead ★]

1 minute ago, Randomguy said:

Can you put me in your will?  I wouldn't ask if I didn't want it, you see.

Sure man!  But I gots this feelings I'm gonna need every last cent of it.

[Randomguy]

Just now, Dottleshead said:

Sure man!  But I gots this feelings I'm gonna need every last cent of it.

Well yeah, but if you die first, then I wouldn't die in poverty.  

I won't kill you, in case you are worried.

[Kirby]

@Dottleshead, very sorry to hear this.  It must be frustrating, especially since it's so inconsistent with your prior history and your expectation.   This could just be an attempt to even out compensation for team members who have a lower base, or it could be a sign of something worse.  I have no idea about the status or environment of your workplace, plus I have no experience with technical jobs.  So my reaction may be utterly inappropriate for your workplace, but you asked what we'd do, so here's my reaction.

1. Despite being frustrated,  I'd be careful not to let my work slip and to continue to do my best.  In part because I wouldn't want to give them any reason to terminate for cause or start a performance plan (which would likely result in smaller or no severance), and also because at some point I may need recommendations or referrals from coworkers and former coworkers and I'd want them to have the best possible opinion of me.

2. No matter what I eventually decided to do, I'd try to lay the groundwork to give me as many options as possible.  Update linkedin which tends to be necessary, although not very effective.  If there are any classes/certifications I could get that would make me more attractive, I'd try to do it now especially if the company would pay for them.  I'd also start trying to recharge my "network".  I'm not an extrovert or natural networker, but if I had friends who had recently left or were in similar fields, I'd try to touch base now - especially if I'm not asking for anything now.  Doing this makes it easier to reach out again if I subsequently do want to ask them for referrals, or even just ask their opinion on various headhunters or job search techniques. You may want to start looking for other jobs, but even if you don't, you'll be well positioned for if you want to start a search later.

3. I'd also try to save as much as possible - with current contributions not necessarily going into retirement accounts.  I'd also look at insurance options.  I don't know about your state, but in mine, the state health insurance marketplace (where the "Obamacare plans" are) offers subsidies based on income (not overall assets).  I've seen a lot of people on financial sites talking about how to control income levels in order to get subsidies that significantly reduce the net cost of the plans (even if they have a lot of money in their retirement accounts) .  It may be worth checking out the rules for your state.  Withdrawals from traditional retirement plans count as income, but withdrawals from already taxed savings do not.  If you have some non-retirement savings, you may be able to live on that for a year and benefit from insurance subsidies before you get to Medicare age.  Your financial planner should be able to help you plan an effective insurance strategy should this become relevant.

 

[Dottleshead ★]

So just rereading my review from my manager and it contains a review from one of my peers.  It came from one of two guys I requested feedback from -- whom I greatly respect -- and this was one of their comments.  From what I can tell, I think it came from our principal engineer:

"Dottles is a great team player and works hard to keep up to date on all his required tasks. He completes execution on time and strives to follow best practices when writing/maintaining new code, tools, and using test frameworks."

Ummm... that's like almost my entire job description in a nutshell.

There's nothing negative in my manager's review at all.  It definitely gives credence to his view that it's not him that is unhappy but rather the org's greater perception that my area of test is not strong enough to keep around.  I'll never know the real story, but it does strongly feel that a message is being sent.  My bonus is going to be half of what it was in my previous 13 years.  I can get over that -- but it pisses me off that I am now expendable.

[Bikeguy]

I missed this post...

On 3/14/2024 at 12:57 PM, Dottleshead said:

So I found out last week that our company bonus was paying out at 107% and yesterday he told me my personal modifier was only 50%.

(annual salary) x 8% x (company modifier) x (personal modifier) = bonus

I have always received a personal modifier of at 90%.  Nothing ever less. 

The math for the bonus was almost identical to how our bonus was calculated. 

We grouped people into 3 buckets for performance reviews;   exceeds expectations,, meets expectations, and does not meet expectations.

I'm sorry to say (at least this is how it worked at my company) a personal multiplier of 50% was only possible if you were in the does not meet expectations group.  If you made it into that group 2 years in a row, you were terminated.  

I have two suggestions for you.   Find a way to get into the meets expectations group and/or start looking for a new job now.  

Good luck with this... 

[Dottleshead ★]

8 hours ago, Bikeguy said:

I missed this post...

The math for the bonus was almost identical to how our bonus was calculated. 

We grouped people into 3 buckets for performance reviews;   exceeds expectations,, meets expectations, and does not meet expectations.

I'm sorry to say (at least this is how it worked at my company) a personal multiplier of 50% was only possible if you were in the does not meet expectations group.  If you made it into that group 2 years in a row, you were terminated.  

I have two suggestions for you.   Find a way to get into the meets expectations group and/or start looking for a new job now.  

Good luck with this... 

Thanks.  It's not me but the area of test I'm in.  The job is a losing hand -- especially with the corporate bosses -- but not my manager.  I just kind of don't give a rip anymore. If I try harder, I feel whatever I do may not be good enough so why kill myself for something that is unappreciated?  Again, there was absolutely nothing negative in my review.  But that's probably not enough to keep me around.  They can't fire me -- but they could lay me off though.  Check.  They probably will lay me off and I'm inclined to go with it.

[maddmaxx ★]

Then you are doing your job for your own pride now.  Layoff or not is out of your control.  I've been there a couple of times and IMO the only way to deal with it is to do the job the way it should be done.

[Mr. Silly]

On 3/14/2024 at 4:51 PM, Dottleshead said:

If I were to bow out before 62, how the hell am I going to pay for it? 

THat is the main problem with the video.  It pre-supposes that retiring at 62 is going to happen.  It doesn't weight whether to retire at 62 vs. 65. vs. 70.  The couple he did the analysis with had a heathy amount in saving, outside of retirement accounts (RAs), that they could live on and not tap into SS or RAs.  If you don't have that savings then you need to work.

 

On 3/14/2024 at 4:51 PM, Dottleshead said:

So I am considering maybe take on the role of a software trainer or something.

Isn't SS calculated based on your last 3 or 5 years income?  If you take a paycut, will that reduce your monthly SS income?  I think SS only considers full time income, so if you find something else then you need to make sure you're not putting in more than 20 hours a week.  

[Kzoo]

4 hours ago, Dottleshead said:

Thanks.  It's not me but the area of test I'm in.  The job is a losing hand -- especially with the corporate bosses -- but not my manager.  I just kind of don't give a rip anymore. If I try harder, I feel whatever I do may not be good enough so why kill myself for something that is unappreciated?  Again, there was absolutely nothing negative in my review.  But that's probably not enough to keep me around.  They can't fire me -- but they could lay me off though.  Check.  They probably will lay me off and I'm inclined to go with it.

Code testing can feel like insurance to an executive.  Maybe a necessary evil to keep us out of trouble........ Maybe something we can do without for a bit and cut expenses.  They never know how badly they need you until it's too late and you will be off over the horizon.

[Randomguy]

50 minutes ago, Mr. Silly said:

THat is the main problem with the video.  It pre-supposes that retiring at 62 is going to happen.  It doesn't weight whether to retire at 62 vs. 65. vs. 70.  The couple he did the analysis with had a heathy amount in saving, outside of retirement accounts (RAs), that they could live on and not tap into SS or RAs.  If you don't have that savings then you need to work.

Isn't SS calculated based on your last 3 or 5 years income?  If you take a paycut, will that reduce your monthly SS income?  I think SS only considers full time income, so if you find something else then you need to make sure you're not putting in more than 20 hours a week.  

If I retire at 62, I won't get crap.    I will definitely need to be working into my 70's.

[maddmaxx ★]

Do you add to the boss's next quarter stock options bonus or are you a disposable cost.  Business, the American way.  Given the present way of doing business, you'll be working for a new company in the future even if you stay.

[Kirby]

1 hour ago, Mr. Silly said:

 

Isn't SS calculated based on your last 3 or 5 years income?  If you take a paycut, will that reduce your monthly SS income?  I think SS only considers full time income, so if you find something else then you need to make sure you're not putting in more than 20 hours a week.  

I believe it's your highest 35 years. Any year with no income counts as a zero, so if you don't yet have 35 years of income, any income is better than zero. Although since they're averaging so many years, any one year or two doesn't have a big impact

ETA: https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/102814/what-maximum-i-can-receive-my-social-security-retirement-benefit.asp#:~:text=Key Takeaways 1 Qualifying for Social Security requires,earner for 35 years to get the maximum.

[Razors Edge ★]

1 hour ago, Mr. Silly said:

THat is the main problem with the video.  It pre-supposes that retiring at 62 is going to happen.  It doesn't weight whether to retire at 62 vs. 65. vs. 70.  The couple he did the analysis with had a heathy amount in saving, outside of retirement accounts (RAs), that they could live on and not tap into SS or RAs.  If you don't have that savings then you need to work.

I didn't get that impression from the video 

I got the impression the folks had a mix of savings - cash, home equity, pre-tax retirement, post-tax retirement, and then SS.

My understanding of the process is to first pull from cash and/or post-tax retirement $$$ (Roth IRA at 59.5 yrs), which is the bridge to SS (and medicare) and then to pre-tax retirement $$$ (probably at the mandatory withdrawals at age 72).

IOW, if you retire before 59.5, use cash on hand to bridge to the start of Roth disbursements, then begin SS/medicare at 62, and intermingle with cash & Roth to hit your income goal, and then at 72 start tapping into 401k (because you have to).

[Kzoo]

2 hours ago, Kirby said:

I believe it's your highest 35 years.

This for sure.

[Kirby]

2 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

I didn't get that impression from the video 

I got the impression the folks had a mix of savings - cash, home equity, pre-tax retirement, post-tax retirement, and then SS.

My understanding of the process is to first pull from cash and/or post-tax retirement $$$ (Roth IRA at 59.5 yrs), which is the bridge to SS (and medicare) and then to pre-tax retirement $$$ (probably at the mandatory withdrawals at age 72).

IOW, if you retire before 59.5, use cash on hand to bridge to the start of Roth disbursements, then begin SS/medicare at 62, and intermingle with cash & Roth to hit your income goal, and then at 72 start tapping into 401k (because you have to).

A lot depends on personal circumstances.  In some cases, it makes sense to draw from tax deferred retirement accounts first  to at least fill up the zero or low income tax brackets.  This can also allow the RMDs to be smaller in your 70's and potentially avoid a tax torpedo, while allowing your tax free accounts like Roths to grow since there are no required distributions.  But the income from taxable accounts can impact health care subsidies so you need to examine all factors.   Leveling out the tax deferred retirement account distributions can also help avoid IRMA adjustments for medicare charges in the future if you have significant amounts in tax deferred accounts.   Lots of factors that interact here, so it can be a good idea to go to an hourly or project based financial advisor  for advice on a distribution plan even if you don't normally use a financial advisor.

[Dottleshead ★]

The other option we have is to sell our place and find another and outright own it. Current plans include having this mortgage payment until I'm dead.  So all my expenses are covering a mortgage.  If we moved to some place like East Texas or even some remote place in Washington State, I probably could get out at 61.  But neither my wife or I want that.  I dunno.  One problem with getting older is sometimes you are forced to make hard decisions and once you make them, they are very often difficult to reverse.  

[Dottleshead ★]

42 minutes ago, Kirby said:

A lot depends on personal circumstances.  In some cases, it makes sense to draw from tax deferred retirement accounts first  to at least fill up the zero or low income tax brackets.  This can also allow the RMDs to be smaller in your 70's and potentially avoid a tax torpedo, while allowing your tax free accounts like Roths to grow since there are no required distributions.  But the income from taxable accounts can impact health care subsidies so you need to examine all factors.   Leveling out the tax deferred retirement account distributions can also help avoid IRMA adjustments for medicare charges in the future if you have significant amounts in tax deferred accounts.   Lots of factors that interact here, so it can be a good idea to go to an hourly or project based financial advisor  for advice on a distribution plan even if you don't normally use a financial advisor.

For sure. We are grateful for your recommendation and hired a fiduciary financial planning advisor.  I think they've already paid dividends and we haven't even got to the meat of the act.

[shootingstar]

19 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

The other option we have is to sell our place and find another and outright own it. Current plans include having this mortgage payment until I'm dead.  So all my expenses are covering a mortgage.  If we moved to some place like East Texas or even some remote place in Washington State, I probably could get out at 61.  But neither my wife or I want that.  I dunno.  One problem with getting older is sometimes you are forced to make hard decisions and once you make them, they are very often difficult to reverse.  

Well, especially if that decision includes largest/big fat dollars.  Everything else, except for chronic disease and health related, can be done differently when getting older. So yea, the other option is selling, living in a totally different/cheaper place permanently.  Unless you win the lottery. Have you bought a lottery ticket recently?  

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, shootingstar said:

Well, especially if that decision includes largest/big fat dollars.  Everything else, except for chronic disease and health related, can be done differently when getting older. So yea, the other option is selling, living in a totally different/cheaper place permanently.  Unless you win the lottery. Have you bought a lottery ticket recently?  

Well I still have a job.  They are still paying me and my performance is in good standing.  The job itself may be removed but when that happens, I'll figure it out.  Actually I'm going to talk to a therapist about it today.  Not sure why when I have so many available to me on SWC.

[Razors Edge ★]

45 minutes ago, Kirby said:

Lots of factors that interact here, so it can be a good idea to go to an hourly or project based financial advisor  for advice on a distribution plan even if you don't normally use a financial advisor.

100%!  No way I could plan that out without having the advisor go over it and make it line up.

But it means, to me, that having savings IN and OUT of retirement accounts and having pre-tax and post-tax RA accounts is the way to go because it gives maximum flexibility to use the various piles (cash, equity, Roth, Traditional, and SS) in the best way to maximize $$$ and minimize taxes.

[Dottleshead ★]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

100%!  No way I could plan that out without having the advisor go over it and make it line up.

But it means, to me, that having savings IN and OUT of retirement accounts and having pre-tax and post-tax RA accounts is the way to go because it gives maximum flexibility to use the various piles (cash, equity, Roth, Traditional, and SS) in the best way to maximize $$$ and minimize taxes.

My advisor is withdrawing from a variable annuity now and reinvesting in Roth' IRAs in part for this reason.  At first I thought it was dumb until they sent me a case study convincing me that in my situation it make great sense to do so.  

[Kzoo]

40 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

I think they've already paid dividends

Nice pun.

[Razors Edge ★]

37 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

My advisor is withdrawing from a variable annuity now and reinvesting in Roth' IRAs in part for this reason.  At first I thought it was dumb until they sent me a case study convincing me that in my situation it make great sense to do so.  

Does that work as a withdrawal and then a "deposit" into the Roth as part of the 8k max or does it just "convert" so you (and your wife) can each still contribute 8k/yr?

But, yeah, that's the stuff I have the financial guys and the tax guy for (and @Kirby!).  No way I can navigate that stuff on my own with it requiring more attention than I have for that sort of thing.

[Dottleshead ★]

51 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Nice pun.

I'd like to take credit for that -- but can't.

[Dottleshead ★]

54 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Does that work as a withdrawal and then a "deposit" into the Roth as part of the 8k max or does it just "convert" so you (and your wife) can each still contribute 8k/yr?

But, yeah, that's the stuff I have the financial guys and the tax guy for (and @Kirby!).  No way I can navigate that stuff on my own with it requiring more attention than I have for that sort of thing.

Yeah, through some provision they are withdrawing X amount taxed at today's rate and reinvesting it now for the next 5 years.  They are able to circumnavigate the 59 1/2 withdrawal rule and are stuffing the IRAs with max contribution. In theory, it should go up in value significantly, will have already been taxed, and gives us more options.  I think I have that case study I could directly PM you if interested.  This strategy is not for everybody but in my case it is.  

And heck no, I never, ever would have thought this was a good idea nor would I have even considered it if I tried to go at it alone.  

[Razors Edge ★]

1 minute ago, Dottleshead said:

Yeah, I through some provision they are withdrawing X amount taxed at today's rate and reinvesting now for the next 5 years.  They are stuffing the IRAs with max contribution. In theory, it should go up in value significantly, will have already been taxed, and gives us more options.  I think I have that case study I could directly PM you if interested.  This strategy is not for everybody but in my case it is.  

And heck no, I never, ever would have thought this was a good idea nor would I have even considered it if I tried to go at it alone.  

I've got no variable annuities  

A WSJ story today (they run these often):

Financial experts caution against saving for retirement to the exclusion of other goals. If you’re forgoing family vacations or sitting on credit card debt to save more for retirement, it may be time to reprioritize.

Even if you’re able to balance other financial goals with retirement savings, check in every few years to see whether you’re putting too much money into a pretax account.

“In an ideal world, you’d want to have an equal amount of assets in retirement that you have not paid taxes on”—for example in a traditional 401(k)—“versus money that you’ve already paid taxes on,” such as that in a Roth account, Hindert says. 

This helps avoid a “tax windfall” in your 70s, when some pretax accounts start requiring annual distributions. A big distribution can mean a hefty tax bill. Splitting contributions between a Roth IRA or Roth 401(k) and a traditional 401(k)—or rolling over funds into a Roth IRA and paying taxes now—could set you up with a pot of tax-free income in retirement.

“That could be a kind of check-in for someone to go, am I saving too much? How much am I getting closer to that goal?” Hindert says.

[Dottleshead ★]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

I've got no variable annuities  

A WSJ story today (they run these often):

Financial experts caution against saving for retirement to the exclusion of other goals. If you’re forgoing family vacations or sitting on credit card debt to save more for retirement, it may be time to reprioritize.

Even if you’re able to balance other financial goals with retirement savings, check in every few years to see whether you’re putting too much money into a pretax account.

“In an ideal world, you’d want to have an equal amount of assets in retirement that you have not paid taxes on”—for example in a traditional 401(k)—“versus money that you’ve already paid taxes on,” such as that in a Roth account, Hindert says. 

This helps avoid a “tax windfall” in your 70s, when some pretax accounts start requiring annual distributions. A big distribution can mean a hefty tax bill. Splitting contributions between a Roth IRA or Roth 401(k) and a traditional 401(k)—or rolling over funds into a Roth IRA and paying taxes now—could set you up with a pot of tax-free income in retirement.

“That could be a kind of check-in for someone to go, am I saving too much? How much am I getting closer to that goal?” Hindert says.

 

Definitely. I think we have a good balance. The guy overseeing my retirement accounts is a tax specialist and I think he's got us on the right path.  I never felt that way even after the first year or two with this company but this guy is on it and explains everything to me when I ask.  I've got a vacation planned the 3rd week of September and plan another mini 4 days in July. 401K is getting maxed. I'd like more savings built up in another account but no way do I plan on cutting off vacations and pleasure at the expense of my future.  My mother waited to retire her whole life and then got cancer 6 months later and then was dead another 6 months after that.  Life is too short to skip out on the things that make it enjoyable. Do it now while you still have your health. At the same time, don't do it at a great expense in case you live to be 90+.  Tradeoffs.

[shootingstar]

2 hours ago, Dottleshead said:

 I've got a vacation planned the 3rd week of September and plan another mini 4 days in July. 401K is getting maxed. I'd like more savings built up in another account but no way do I plan on cutting off vacations and pleasure at the expense of my future.  My mother waited to retire her whole life and then got cancer 6 months later and then was dead another 6 months after that.  Life is too short to skip out on the things that make it enjoyable. Do it now while you still have your health. At the same time, don't do it at a great expense in case you live to be 90+.  Tradeoffs.

A good Toronto friend who retired around 61 yrs., seems to be on an overseas travel binge. At least 3 trips annually outside of Canada and usually across an ocean to destination.  She estimates spending $12K CAN  annually so far.  She even managed to squeeze 1 overseas trip during each covid restricted year.

Frankly, I would not be able to plan like that on that budget.

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, shootingstar said:

A good Toronto friend who retired around 61 yrs., seems to be on an overseas travel binge. At least 3 trips annually outside of Canada and usually across an ocean to destination.  She estimates spending $12K CAN  annually so far. 

Frankly, I would not be able to plan like that.

I think I could arrange a house sitting gig for her.  We live in Toronto, upkeep her place, and she travels to Europe.  In the meantime, I work my way southwest and catch flights in @Wilbur's cargo and see the sites (once landed of course).

[Dottleshead ★]

3 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

A good Toronto friend who retired around 61 yrs., seems to be on an overseas travel binge. At least 3 trips annually outside of Canada and usually across an ocean to destination.  She estimates spending $12K CAN  annually so far. 

Frankly, I would not be able to plan like that.

Go see the world, shootie.

[shootingstar]

34 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

I think I could arrange a house sitting gig for her.  We live in Toronto, upkeep her place, and she travels to Europe.  In the meantime, I work my way southwest and catch flights in @Wilbur's cargo and see the sites (once landed of course).

Yes, fit your slimmer self in cargo hold.  

[Dottleshead ★]

7 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

Yes, fit your slimmer self in cargo hold.  

Something like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Dickies-Mens-Slim-Straight-Stretch-Twill-Cargo/dp/B00I4R2SWO