ChrisL Posted January 19 Share #1 Posted January 19 Looks like the grand jury is filing involuntary manslaughter charges on Baldwin…. This will be an interesting case to follow. Personally I think he’s convicted but likely won’t see much if any jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted January 19 Share #2 Posted January 19 Just now, ChrisL said: Looks like the grand jury is filing involuntary manslaughter charges on Baldwin…. This will be an interesting case to follow. Personally I think he’s convicted but likely won’t see much if any jail. This remains a Lose-Lose situation - unlike my WinBIG-Lose situation I am working on in another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted January 19 Share #3 Posted January 19 Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisL Posted January 19 Author Share #4 Posted January 19 3 minutes ago, Randomguy said: Why? The shooting on the Rust set killing the cinematographer. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna134564 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted January 19 Share #5 Posted January 19 2 minutes ago, Randomguy said: Why? A higher likelihood of a conviction? Sadly, I think most "forensic evidence" is a lot less black/white than portrayed on TV or by lawyers in a courtroom, but it is clear Baldwin was practicing with the gun that shot the bullet killing the woman, and both sides seem to have a shot at making their case. A New Mexico grand jury has indicted Alec Baldwin for involuntary manslaughter in the fatal “Rust” movie shooting, months after prosecutors dropped the same charges against the actor. The indictment was filed Friday in state district court in Santa Fe, and alleges that Baldwin shot and killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on the set of the Old West movie near Santa Fe in 2021. Charges against Baldwin had been dropped last April after his defense attorneys raised the possibility that the gun went off accidentally based on the condition of the gun. Prosecutors secured a new analysis of the revolver and the fatal bullet by one of the nation’s top experts who concluded that the gun didn’t go off by itself. Special prosecutors Kari Morrissey and Jason Lewis didn’t immediately respond to requests for comment. Baldwin’s attorneys Luke Nikas and Alex Spiro said in a statement that “we look forward to our day in court.” The new indictment is the latest turn in a years long saga over who should be blamed for the death of Hutchins, a rising star in the film industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickinMD ★ Posted January 20 Share #6 Posted January 20 4 hours ago, ChrisL said: Looks like the grand jury is filing involuntary manslaughter charges on Baldwin…. This will be an interesting case to follow. Personally I think he’s convicted but likely won’t see much if any jail. I don't know the legalese involved in him pointing the gun toward anyone and firing it in practice. He has probably handled unloaded/blank guns on sets many times and they were always safe to fire. Difficult case. It's odd they don't have some gunsmith make replicas of the guns involved that can only fire blanks, like the starting pistols used in track where runners are trained to start on seeing the gunsmoke, not on hearing the sound which can take a fraction of a second longer to get to the ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted January 20 Share #7 Posted January 20 10 hours ago, MickinMD said: I don't know the legalese involved in him pointing the gun toward anyone and firing it in practice. He has probably handled unloaded/blank guns on sets many times and they were always safe to fire. Difficult case. It's odd they don't have some gunsmith make replicas of the guns involved that can only fire blanks, like the starting pistols used in track where runners are trained to start on seeing the gunsmoke, not on hearing the sound which can take a fraction of a second longer to get to the ear. Nice trivia on the gunsmoke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted January 20 Share #8 Posted January 20 Poor Alec. This thing is crazy for being so on again, off again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted January 20 Share #9 Posted January 20 Might as well be in Italy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post 2Far ★ Posted January 20 Popular Post Share #10 Posted January 20 Not an Alex fan, but this is bullshit. The armorer should be the one on the hook. WTH did the armored not know the difference between live and blank/dummy ammunition? HTF did live ammo get anywhere near the set? WTF were they previously plinking with movie props. 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted January 20 Share #11 Posted January 20 7 minutes ago, 2Far said: Not an Alex fan, but this is bullshit. The armorer should be the one on the hook. WTH did the armored not know the difference between live and blank/dummy ammunition? HTF did live ammo get anywhere near the set? WTF were they previously plinking with movie props. I think he has more responsibility as a producer who did not hire an experienced and qualified armorer. That was like letting an inexperienced pilot fly a plane alone or with another inexperienced one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Far ★ Posted January 20 Share #12 Posted January 20 1 hour ago, Ralphie said: I think he has more responsibility as a producer who did not hire an experienced and qualified armorer. That was like letting an inexperienced pilot fly a plane alone or with another inexperienced one. Maybe. But the news was still talking about the functionality of the gun & “new evidence”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shu Fang Bastard ★ Posted January 20 Share #13 Posted January 20 I stand behind Alec Baldwin. Couch 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur ★ Posted January 21 Share #14 Posted January 21 20 hours ago, Shu Fang said: I stand behind Alec Baldwin. Couch Good choice! It is the only safe place! 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shu Fang Bastard ★ Posted January 21 Share #15 Posted January 21 On 1/20/2024 at 6:43 AM, Ralphie said: Poor Alec. Yea. It's not like he killed someone. Couch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted January 21 Share #16 Posted January 21 21 hours ago, 2Far said: Maybe. But the news was still talking about the functionality of the gun & “new evidence”. A forensic team has in their opinion determined that the gun could not have gone off unless the trigger was pulled. We all know this to be true right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisL Posted January 21 Author Share #17 Posted January 21 24 minutes ago, maddmaxx said: A forensic team has in their opinion determined that the gun could not have gone off unless the trigger was pulled. We all know this to be true right? There are some really rare situations where a weapon can discharge without pulling the trigger. On a revolver, especially a single action it’s hard though and if the hammer is pulled all the way back impossible. Ever see an M60 “run away?” Freaking crazy and scary if you have never experienced it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheep_herder ★ Posted January 21 Share #18 Posted January 21 As gun owners we feel strongly, folks should not be pointing guns at others except in movies or if it is your job (law officers and military)! Hell my wife learned that when she was 4.5 yo. Blame who you want, but he pointed the gun and not in the movie. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrAzY Posted January 21 Share #19 Posted January 21 On 1/20/2024 at 9:37 AM, 2Far said: Not an Alex fan, but this is bullshit. The armorer should be the one on the hook. WTH did the armored not know the difference between live and blank/dummy ammunition? HTF did live ammo get anywhere near the set? WTF were they previously plinking with movie props. there was something said about using the gun to shoot targets or something like that.. I stopped following this once I came to the realization of people with money or in the spotlight always walk and never get really charged with anything because of their status. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #20 Posted January 22 8 hours ago, KrAzY said: I stopped following this once I came to the realization of people with money or in the spotlight always walk and never get really charged with anything because of their status. This... That's why I quit following this case too. If I 'accidently' shot someone with my 357 magnum revolver, I'd be in jail already. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #21 Posted January 22 On 1/20/2024 at 11:16 AM, 2Far said: But the news was still talking about the functionality of the gun Seems to me the gun worked. I remember reading that Alec was cocking the hammer (different ways) and asking someone (can't remember now) how that looked before they filmed the scene. Drop an hammer on a revolver on a life round it goes BANG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted January 22 Share #22 Posted January 22 Somebody brought live ammunition onto the set. That point seems to escape everyone. No live ammunition, no accidental shooting, no death, no case. The prosecution is looking for the wrong scapegoat. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #23 Posted January 22 1 hour ago, maddmaxx said: Somebody brought live ammunition onto the set. That point seems to escape everyone. No live ammunition, no accidental shooting, no death, no case. The prosecution is looking for the wrong scapegoat. Yes, the crew who brought live ammo to the set to plink. That was bad. Everyone else who heard the plinking was not paying attention. A 45 caliber bullet makes a big BANG when it is shot. EVERYONE had to hear that on the movie set. And they all (including the boss Alex) ignored the obvious... that this was a VERY bad thing to allow to happen. Then again... anyone who hands me a gun and says 'it is unloaded'.... I CHECK to be 100% sure it is not loaded. You don't get a do over after an accidental discharge. That's on Alex. Lots if incompetence was displayed on the Rust movie set, and a person is dead. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted January 22 Share #24 Posted January 22 1 hour ago, maddmaxx said: Somebody brought live ammunition onto the set. That point seems to escape everyone. No live ammunition, no accidental shooting, no death, no case. This is the confusing bit. I feel like there is a lot conversation around "What was loaded in the gun?" and "How does a prop gun kill someone?". I feel like there must be some nuance I am missing. To me "live" ammo is a straight forward bullet you load in a normal gun to shoot folks. Then, "blank" would just be a noise maker that can't be a projectile ever. Then, somewhere in the middle is a "squib"(?) which is like a blank that makes noise, but it also has some degree of "projectile" to look good on camera (either flash" or "smoke"). I can not imagine that a "prop" gun would ever be loaded with REAL "live" ammo and handed to an actor for a scene or to practice a scene. But maybe there are also "common sense" rules around the middle of the road "squib" type things? Those can kill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #25 Posted January 22 9 minutes ago, Razors Edge said: Then, "blank" would just be a noise maker that can't be a projectile ever. Nope... Three Cases of Death Caused by Shots From Blank Cartridge THE number one rule about ANY gun is assume it's loaded until YOU prove it is not. Then it's OK to handle with care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted January 22 Share #26 Posted January 22 Just now, Bikeguy said: Nope... Three Cases of Death Caused by Shots From Blank Cartridge Exactly - literally the challenge with this Baldwin story. WHAT killed the woman? We know WHO (Baldwin) and WHEN & WHERE, too. Now also need a WHY. But I don't feel like - in our discussions HERE, the WHAT has been answered. Real live ammo (possibly used earlier in "plinking")? A "pyrotechnic" round meant to simulate a gun being fired? A "blank" for sound with other effects added later? I'd imagine it is public record, but man, I couldn't tell you WHAT killed that poor woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #27 Posted January 22 When @Randomguy was at the shooting range and I recall using @KrAzY's rifle this picture was taken. I sure hope the there was NO finger on the trigger. You never put your finger on the trigger (or pull an hammer on a revolver) on a gun unless you are willing to destroy whatever is front of the barrel of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #28 Posted January 22 5 minutes ago, Razors Edge said: WHAT killed the woman? A real 45 caliber bullet did. And that passed thru the woman and hit the other person behind her too. Yeah one bullet hit 2 people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #29 Posted January 22 7 minutes ago, Razors Edge said: Real live ammo (possibly used earlier in "plinking")? That's what I read. Real ammo was being used for plinking. And of course they had the real gun too for Alex to use for the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrAzY Posted January 22 Share #30 Posted January 22 4 minutes ago, Bikeguy said: When @Randomguy was at the shooting range and I recall using @KrAzY' rifle this picture was taken. I sure hope the there was NO finger on the trigger. You never put your finger on the trigger (or pull an hammer on a revolver) on a gun unless you are willing to destroy whatever is front of the barrel of the gun. trigger was not fingered.. I was well aware what dinging was doing at the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted January 22 Share #31 Posted January 22 2 minutes ago, Bikeguy said: A real 45 caliber bullet did. And that passed thru the woman and hit the other person behind her too. Yeah one bullet hit 2 people. Yeah - see, that's the info I have not read anywhere but here. It seems like a pretty huge part of the story. Coupled with the plinking too - perhaps using the same gun and same ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted January 22 Share #32 Posted January 22 21 minutes ago, Razors Edge said: Exactly - literally the challenge with this Baldwin story. WHAT killed the woman? We know WHO (Baldwin) and WHEN & WHERE, too. Now also need a WHY. But I don't feel like - in our discussions HERE, the WHAT has been answered. Real live ammo (possibly used earlier in "plinking")? A "pyrotechnic" round meant to simulate a gun being fired? A "blank" for sound with other effects added later? I'd imagine it is public record, but man, I couldn't tell you WHAT killed that poor woman. Not a challenge at all. It's known that real kill people ammunition was in the gun by accident? I guess the careless part is that no one really expected an actor to inspect the gun for live ammunition when a professional armorer handed it to him. Do we need an actor on a set to sign a document stating that they have inspected the gun handed to them by a professional and that they have determined that it was loaded with safe ammunition. IMO he's only on the hook if he knew there was real ammunition on the set and that there was a possibility that the prop gun had at one time had some in it. At that point common sense firearms handling should check in. There never should have been real ammunition around actors. If you watch most movies really close you will eventually notice that when an actor uses an automatic weapon that the slide locks back after the shot. Nobody even trusts an actor to have a weapon with a live blank in it. They get the round necessary for the take and that's all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted January 22 Share #33 Posted January 22 12 minutes ago, maddmaxx said: I guess the careless part is... ...a long list at this point A single "non-careless" step in this series of actions would have saved the woman's life. So many points in the story where a simple check would have sufficed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted January 22 Share #34 Posted January 22 The prosecutor in the “Rust” case offered a “favorable” outcome last fall to armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed if she would help explain how live rounds made it onto the film’s set. But the offer came with a warning that if she refused, she would be hit with additional charges. Gutierrez Reed is set to go on trial next month in Santa Fe, N.M., for the death of Halyna Hutchins, the “Rust” cinematographer. She faces up to three years in prison if convicted on charges of involuntary manslaughter and tampering with evidence. Hutchins was killed in Oct. 2021 while preparing to film a scene with Alec Baldwin, who was holding a gun that fired a live bullet. Gutierrez Reed loaded the gun, which was supposed to contain only dummy rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #35 Posted January 22 54 minutes ago, Razors Edge said: Yeah - see, that's the info I have not read anywhere but Explainer: How did live rounds get onto the set of Alec Baldwin's 'Rust'? | Reuters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisL Posted January 22 Author Share #36 Posted January 22 Lots of good commentary above. The way I see it is that the grand jury, based on their investigation found Baldwin was criminally negligent in some way that led to the charges. The best analogy I can make is a kid runs out into an intersection and get killed by an oncoming car. Driver was not distracted and just couldn’t stop in time, no charges. Driver was looking at his phone contributing to distracted driving, a case for manslaughter. Negligence that led to a death. The grand jury felt that Baldwin was negligent in some way which led to someone dying. Again innocent until proven guilty so we’ll see how this goes. Maybe he is completely exonerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisL Posted January 22 Author Share #37 Posted January 22 1 hour ago, Bikeguy said: A real 45 caliber bullet did. And that passed thru the woman and hit the other person behind her too. Yeah one bullet hit 2 people. I’m not privy to the details but that was likely a 45 Long Colt which is common in SA revolvers of the era and not a 45 ACP. I don’t have the ballistics memorized but a 45 LC travels at a much higher velocity than a 45 ACP. You can see by cartridge size it packs more powder, like a 357 Magnum compared to a 38 Spcl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #38 Posted January 22 16 minutes ago, ChrisL said: I don’t have the ballistics memorized but a 45 LC travels at a much higher velocity than a 45 ACP. That would explain how one bullet passed thru one person (and killed her) and wounded the person behind her. Then again a 45 APC could possibly over pernitrate a small person too. 2 hours ago, maddmaxx said: IMO he's only on the hook if he knew there was real ammunition on the set and that there was a possibility that the prop gun had at one time had some in it. From what I read a while back... the gun Alex used was being used for plinking by some of the crew. I don't see how everyone at the movie set didn't know that the gun was being used for plinking. Unless... the crew was plinking when most people (including Alex) were off site for lunch, etc... Anyone who was at the site when they were plinking would know the gun was being used with live ammo. Max, I'm sure you probably have heard a 45 being fired during your military days. It's not exactly quiet. At the shooting range with hearing protection I could hear and feel the BANG a 45 makes from the guy next to me shooting one. (sometime soon... I'll take my birthday/Christmas gift a 45 APC 1911 pistol to the shooting range) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisL Posted January 22 Author Share #39 Posted January 22 6 minutes ago, Bikeguy said: That would explain how one bullet passed thru one person (and killed her) and wounded the person behind her. Then again a 45 APC could possibly over pernitrate a small person too. From what I read a while back... the gun Alex used was being used for plinking by some of the crew. I don't see how everyone at the movie set didn't know that the gun was being used for plinking. Unless... the crew was plinking when most people (including Alex) were off site for lunch, etc... Anyone who was at the site when they were plinking would know the gun was being used with live ammo. Max, I'm sure you probably have heard a 45 being fired during your military days. It's not exactly quiet. At the shooting range with hearing protection I could hear and feel the BANG a 45 makes from the guy next to me shooting one. (sometime soon... I'll take my birthday/Christmas gift a 45 APC 1911 pistol to the shooting range) Maybe but the 45 ACP is known for its hit & stick attributes. It’s low velocity and large bullet tends not to pass through people. I witnessed someone get hit in the shoulder with a .45 and it literally picked him up & spun him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR46 Posted January 22 Share #40 Posted January 22 1 hour ago, ChrisL said: The best analogy I can make is a kid runs out into an intersection and get killed by an oncoming car. Driver was not distracted and just couldn’t stop in time, no charges. Driver was looking at his phone contributing to distracted driving, a case for manslaughter. Negligence that led to a death. If you took your car to the mechanic to have brakes installed and the mechanic tells you that the brakes are all fixed and they failed and you end up running over the kid. Do you put the blame on the mechanic that didn't do his job correctly or the driver of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted January 22 Share #41 Posted January 22 When I hear plinking I think .22. Can you plink with a .45? Seems more like “booming”! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisL Posted January 22 Author Share #42 Posted January 22 13 minutes ago, BR46 said: If you took your car to the mechanic to have brakes installed and the mechanic tells you that the brakes are all fixed and they failed and you end up running over the kid. Do you put the blame on the mechanic that didn't do his job correctly or the driver of the car. Well the first question is did the brakes work properly before the kid ran out in the street? From the moment you started driving until the event, did the driver apply the brakes & did they work properly? If not, why did the driver keep driving? So there could be a case to blame both… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisL Posted January 22 Author Share #43 Posted January 22 16 minutes ago, Ralphie said: When I hear plinking I think .22. Can you plink with a .45? Seems more like “booming”! It’s not too terrible as most weapons chambered in .45 are semi auto so the blowback of the slide takes up some of the kick. A 38 special revolver (IMHO) was more of a kick. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted January 22 Share #44 Posted January 22 38 minutes ago, Bikeguy said: That would explain how one bullet passed thru one person (and killed her) and wounded the person behind her. Then again a 45 APC could possibly over pernitrate a small person too. From what I read a while back... the gun Alex used was being used for plinking by some of the crew. I don't see how everyone at the movie set didn't know that the gun was being used for plinking. Unless... the crew was plinking when most people (including Alex) were off site for lunch, etc... Anyone who was at the site when they were plinking would know the gun was being used with live ammo. Max, I'm sure you probably have heard a 45 being fired during your military days. It's not exactly quiet. At the shooting range with hearing protection I could hear and feel the BANG a 45 makes from the guy next to me shooting one. (sometime soon... I'll take my birthday/Christmas gift a 45 APC 1911 pistol to the shooting range) Ha. I was on the pistol team for a while using a 1911 and my primary weapon during weapons handling was a Thompson SMG. You're not old enough to have had one of those probably. Yes, they are very loud. We preferred to practice with one chambered for 38. That never prepared one for a basement range though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted January 22 Share #45 Posted January 22 When my right hand was bandaged up I tried to learn to shoot with the left. I sucked and no longer was on the pistol team. The Thompson was my weapons officer's idea of a joke at first but I continued to carry it for the rest of my time on that detail. I was one of the few people he had who could actually hit something with it beyond just putting rounds out in the general direction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #46 Posted January 22 32 minutes ago, maddmaxx said: Thompson SMG. You're not old enough to have had one of those probably. Never seen one. If I lived in a different state I could buy the civilian version of a Thompson. https://www.auto-ordnance.com/thompson-m1/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #47 Posted January 22 1 hour ago, BR46 said: If you took your car to the mechanic to have brakes installed and the mechanic tells you that the brakes are all fixed The first thing I do is take the car out for a test drive. More accurately a few test stops. If I can get the ABS to activate on a dry road, I know the car should be OK. Then I tell WoBG the car is good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisL Posted January 22 Author Share #48 Posted January 22 10 minutes ago, maddmaxx said: When my right hand was bandaged up I tried to learn to shoot with the left. I sucked and no longer was on the pistol team. The Thompson was my weapons officer's idea of a joke at first but I continued to carry it for the rest of my time on that detail. I was one of the few people he had who could actually hit something with it beyond just putting rounds out in the general direction. I always prided myself in my off hand shooting and was quite good at it. In the police academy we did a two man range where we had numerous obstacles to shoot from. All of them required someone to engage off hand. I told my partner I’d do all of the off hand shooting and we won the event. The range officers invited us back to a competition a few weeks later with other active LE and competitive shooters and we did really well. We didn’t medal but top 10 for our class that I recall. Anyway off hand shooting came naturally to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikeguy Posted January 22 Share #49 Posted January 22 24 minutes ago, maddmaxx said: When my right hand was bandaged up I tried to learn to shoot with the left. I've been practicing with both hands individually and using both hands shooting left handed too. And of course using 2 hands shooting right handed. You never know when you may need that skill. I took a class where I had the opportunity to shoot with both hands and each hand and while moving forward, backward, and sideways. You can't do that at the shooting ranges near me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randomguy Posted January 22 Share #50 Posted January 22 4 hours ago, Bikeguy said: You never put your finger on the trigger Of course I was on the trigger, how can you shoot bad guys if you aren't ready? I am still on the trigger, perched in a state of cat-like readiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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