So, the WSJ says men are leaving college.

[Wilbur ★]

Right now, enrollment is 59.5% women and 40.5% men.  They are projecting that in 10 years, twice as many women to men will attend college.  Currently, of the people dropping out, 70% are men. 

Men on Tinder with a Ph.D. get 90% more swipes than men with a bachelor's degree. 

Interesting statistics but why are men leaving?  

[MickinMD ★]

29 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Right now, enrollment is 59.5% women and 40.5% men.  They are projecting that in 10 years, twice as many women to men will attend college.  Currently, of the people dropping out, 70% are men. 

Men on Tinder with a Ph.D. get 90% more swipes than men with a bachelor's degree. 

Interesting statistics but why are men leaving?  

Ever since No Child Left Behind crippled high school academic standards, high school educations are not what they used to be and I think that less-self-controlled boys have had their educations diminished more than girls.

I think that men are less prepared for college than women and women are more likely than men to go into majors that are less mathematical like Social Work and Dance.

[MoseySusan]

Did the WSJ piece offer any analysis, exit interview data, or expert commentary? What do they suggest for reasons?

In my family, the men without college education either own a business, went through the military, or found a career with good salaries but no college required, including my BiL who writes software. 
 

It could be that men are more likely to want to just get into a career field without the added time and debt spent in non-degree field college courses. 

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

1 hour ago, Wilbur said:

nteresting statistics but why are men leaving?  

All the good fraternities are on double secret probation.

[maddmaxx ★]

Are men taking advantage of the availability of high paying jobs in the trades.  Trained auto mechanics and shipyard jobs often pay more than many jobs that require college degrees.  It's been said often that our system pushes too many into the college path when that may not be the best way to go.

[Wilbur ★]

46 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

Did the WSJ piece offer any analysis, exit interview data, or expert commentary? What do they suggest for reasons?

In my family, the men without college education either own a business, went through the military, or found a career with good salaries but no college required, including my BiL who writes software. 
 

It could be that men are more likely to want to just get into a career field without the added time and debt spent in non-degree field college courses. 

They suggested a changing workforce requirement, lack of concern for future earnings and college-related societal change.  They offered little data and no solutions. It seemed the article was more about top-earning women having suitable mate choices. 

[jsharr ★]

The US public education system sucks.  It does not develop academicly motivated students on its own. Both of our boys did not like their high school years so much that they have no desire to continue education, even though they have no idea what college is like.

[2Far ★]

30 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Are men taking advantage of the availability of high paying jobs in the trades.  Trained auto mechanics and shipyard jobs often pay more than many jobs that require college degrees.  It's been said often that our system pushes too many into the college path when that may not be the best way to go.

Yeah, well we’re not seeing any influx of new talent. OTOH, as a company, we’re not proactively making a path available to a younger generation. 

[Razors Edge ★]

1 hour ago, MoseySusan said:

Did the WSJ piece offer any analysis, exit interview data, or expert commentary? What do they suggest for reasons?

In my family, the men without college education either own a business, went through the military, or found a career with good salaries but no college required, including my BiL who writes software. 
 

It could be that men are more likely to want to just get into a career field without the added time and debt spent in non-degree field college courses. 

It's a little bit dated, and things today may be better or worse than that, but in Sept 2021, just past the height of the pandemic, things were definitely looking grim for a lot of reasons.

A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’

The number of men enrolled at two- and four-year colleges has fallen behind women by record levels, in a widening education gap across the U.S.

By Douglas Belkin - Sept. 6, 2021

Men are abandoning higher education in such numbers that they now trail female college students by record levels.

At the close of the 2020-21 academic year, women made up 59.5% of college students, an all-time high, and men 40.5%, according to enrollment data from the National Student Clearinghouse, a nonprofit research group. U.S. colleges and universities had 1.5 million fewer students compared with five years ago, and men accounted for 71% of the decline.

This education gap, which holds at both two- and four-year colleges, has been slowly widening for 40 years. The divergence increases at graduation: After six years of college, 65% of women in the U.S. who started a four-year university in 2012 received diplomas by 2018 compared with 59% of men during the same period, according to the U.S. Department of Education.

In the next few years, two women will earn a college degree for every man, if the trend continues, said Douglas Shapiro, executive director of the research center at the National Student Clearinghouse.

No reversal is in sight. Women increased their lead over men in college applications for the 2021-22 school year—3,805,978 to 2,815,810—by nearly a percentage point compared with the previous academic year, according to Common Application, a nonprofit that transmits applications to more than 900 schools. Women make up 49% of the college-age population in the U.S., according to the Census Bureau. 

“Men are falling behind remarkably fast,” said Thomas Mortenson, a senior scholar at the Pell Institute for the Study of Opportunity in Higher Education, which aims to improve educational opportunities for low-income, first-generation and disabled college students.

American colleges, which are embroiled in debates over racial and gender equality, and working on ways to reduce sexual assault and harassment of women on campus, have yet to reach a consensus on what might slow the retreat of men from higher education. Some schools are quietly trying programs to enroll more men, but there is scant campus support for spending resources to boost male attendance and retention.

...

 

[Razors Edge ★]

44 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Are men taking advantage of the availability of high paying jobs in the trades. 

Probably a big part of it. And why not, right?  We need trades. We need folks doing a lot of difficult (or not) and higher paying (or not) jobs that definitely don't require a college degree.  

I think, too, some see a nice paycheck at 18, 19, or 20 as a way to "get" stuff - cars or electronics or independence.  If they pick careers wisely, that's a great long term path filled with early rewards.  But, if they pick wrong (I was an idiot teen) and can't course correct, that's a tough life for the next 6 decades.

29 minutes ago, jsharr said:

The US public education system sucks.  It does not develop academicly motivated students on its own. Both of our boys did not like their high school years so much that they have no desire to continue education, even though they have no idea what college is like.

I'm guessing that's as much "local schools/TX education system sucks" as actually a wide paintbrush condemnation.  You'll still find school systems that do really well teaching and motivating boys and girls, blacks and white, American born and immigrants, etc., but there definitely is no guarantee any of us will be in those school districts

If you extend "US public education" to the public state colleges and universities, I think you are way off.  They might be about the only thing holding college costs to an almost sane cost.  Take away the public schools, and average tuition will be 2x or 3x higher.

[Longjohn ★]

19 hours ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

All the good fraternities are on double secret probation.

Mark as solution.

[maddmaxx ★]

19 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Probably a big part of it. And why not, right?  We need trades. We need folks doing a lot of difficult (or not) and higher paying (or not) jobs that definitely don't require a college degree.  

I think, too, some see a nice paycheck at 18, 19, or 20 as a way to "get" stuff - cars or electronics or independence.  If they pick careers wisely, that's a great long term path filled with early rewards.  But, if they pick wrong (I was an idiot teen) and can't course correct, that's a tough life for the next 6 decades.

I'm guessing that's as much "local schools/TX education system sucks" as actually a wide paintbrush condemnation.  You'll still find school systems that do really well teaching and motivating boys and girls, blacks and white, American born and immigrants, etc., but there definitely is no guarantee any of us will be in those school districts

If you extend "US public education" to the public state colleges and universities, I think you are way off.  They might be about the only thing holding college costs to an almost sane cost.  Take away the public schools, and average tuition will be 2x or 3x higher.

There is nothing holding back college costs.  Maybe community colleges have a small effect, but even the public universities are out of control.  Education in the US, like medicine is for profit.  Cash is king.

[shootingstar]

20 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Probably a big part of it. And why not, right?  We need trades. We need folks doing a lot of difficult (or not) and higher paying (or not) jobs that definitely don't require a college degree.  

I think, too, some see a nice paycheck at 18, 19, or 20 as a way to "get" stuff - cars or electronics or independence.  If they pick careers wisely, that's a great long term path filled with early rewards.  But, if they pick wrong (I was an idiot teen) and can't course correct, that's a tough life for the next 6 decades.

I'm guessing that's as much "local schools/TX education system sucks" as actually a wide paintbrush condemnation.  You'll still find school systems that do really well teaching and motivating boys and girls, blacks and white, American born and immigrants, etc., but there definitely is no guarantee any of us will be in those school districts

If you extend "US public education" to the public state colleges and universities, I think you are way off.  They might be about the only thing holding college costs to an almost sane cost.  Take away the public schools, and average tuition will be 2x or 3x higher.

In chatting up with various locals in Alberta, for sure nice wages (though some contract and subject to whims of trades unions), looks nice. But getting certified which means some coursework is helpful for some trades these days since en employer may not want to foot the effort/cost of on-the job training.  I agree with RE, that among young, some might want to get "stuff" immediately by forgoing college/university.   Sure if trades is a fit for them and if they understand that their bodies need to take working outdoors every winter, etc. if needed.

I'm not convinced that all public schools are crap...at least not the schools that multiple generations of my family went.  It does mean careful selection and parental interest.

 

[maddmaxx ★]

1 hour ago, shootingstar said:

In chatting up with various locals in Alberta, for sure nice wages (though some contract and subject to whims of trades unions), looks nice. But getting certified which means some coursework is helpful for some trades these days since en employer may not want to foot the effort/cost of on-the job training.  I agree with RE, that among young, some might want to get "stuff" immediately by forgoing college/university.   Sure if trades is a fit for them and if they understand that their bodies need to take working outdoors every winter, etc. if needed.

I'm not convinced that all public schools are crap...at least not the schools that multiple generations of my family went.  It does mean careful selection and parental interest.

I don't think all public schools are crap, but they are definitely a business often more concerned with making money, getting research grants and gaining reputation than they are with the well being of undergraduate students.  

[Randomguy]

Broad change is never fun.  This is how current college-aged students feel, best as I can figure.

I think there is a distinct lack of trust in contemporary society that a degree will pay off.  Plenty of grads slot into fields where they will routinely be taken advantage of in terms of income, hours worked, and limited opportunity.  Why get into lots of debt to be held in wage slavery if employers will just pay enough to keep you there while still barely being able to pay back a tiny portion of your massive debt each month? 

Better bet logically  is to get a union job where employer's lies don't matter as much, and if you work a certain number of hours, you get a certain pay and benefits, and you aren't constantly jerked around or carrot/sticked into working 80 hours a week for 40 hours of pay and some vague hint that if you work really hard (haha), you will certainly succeed, just after the stock buybacks, executive bonuses, all that kind of BS you have to wade through to one day get some sort of implied reward that simply doesn't come.  

College costs are crazy, payoff isn't nearly what it was for a degree, you'll generally just be fucked around with, can't buy a house, and live in constant pay and debt insecurity.  Unions are a good place to exert force to secure a living wage, have off time, not be stuck with debt, etc., until you figure out what kind of business or side hustle you can start that may grow into your own thing.

Anyway, that is what you hear when you talk to college aged folks.  No trust in authority for good reason, you got a clown-car party holding the country hostage with zero platform or anything positive at all to say or do about anything, and no answers, and doing exactly dick to help anyone other than themselves.  It is not a good environment for kids these days, it really isn't a mystery as to why they have lost a lot of faith in a system that clearly only works well for the already rich.   

 

[MoseySusan]

23 hours ago, Wilbur said:

It seemed the article was more about top-earning women having suitable mate choices

My niece included her concern about work /life balance in an essay as part of a graduate study program at…can’t remember which elite university. She eventually earned a PhD at Stanford in molecular biology. But she also found that she doesn’t like “the culture in a research lab,” and went the education route instead, part of a highly educated faculty in a Seattle private school. She makes bank! And she’s marrying a guy who works in tech. They’re neither one hurting for a standard of living. 

[maddmaxx ★]

46 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

My niece included her concern about work /life balance in an essay as part of a graduate study program at…can’t remember which elite university. She eventually earned a PhD at Stanford in molecular biology. But she also found that she doesn’t like “the culture in a research lab,” and went the education route instead, part of a highly educated faculty in a Seattle private school. She makes bank! And she’s marrying a guy who works in tech. They’re neither one hurting for a standard of living. 

And with their earned success they become the carrot held out in front of the masses convincing them that college is the mandatory beginning of success.  On the other hand, some universities have almost half of the freshman incoming class dropped before the sophomore year.

[Bikeguy]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:56 AM, Razors Edge said:

On 10/7/2023 at 11:03 AM, maddmaxx said:

Are men taking advantage of the availability of high paying jobs in the trades. 

Probably a big part of it. And why not, right?

Nope...    From the link below.   The skilled trades industry is proving to be one of the hardest hit by worker scarcity.

https://www.peopleready.com/skilled-trades-labor-scarcity-workforce-aging-as-fewer-recruits-enter-trades/

Not sure what the young men are doing.    

Not much according to this. https://www.businessinsider.com/young-men-work-less-financially-independent-salary-marriageability-2023-6