How many people are too many?

[Randomguy]

I think there are way too many people on the earth right now,  Population growth doesn't seem to be slowing down overall, and it is causing all kinds of trouble.

At what point will the carrying capacity be reached?

This is fun and also mortifying to think about.

 

[jsharr ★]

[Razors Edge ★]

12 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

I think there are way too many people on the earth right now,  Population growth doesn't seem to be slowing down overall, and it is causing all kinds of trouble.

At what point will the carrying capacity be reached?

This is fun and also mortifying to think about.

Isn't the Rapture - coming any day now - gonna easily sort that all out?  I get confused about my mythology, but I can say there is a good bit of positive buzz around this rapture thing.

[goldendesign]

In a bathroom? 2

In a single-family home? 5

In an event hall? 150

In a stadium? 25k

On earth? -25% current population

 

In my head? n-1

[Randomguy]

9 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Isn't the Rapture - coming any day now - gonna easily sort that all out?  I get confused about my mythology, but I can say there is a good bit of positive buzz around this rapture thing.

Ah, the shamans of one kind of voodoo have been saying that for years.  The date always gets pushed back and all we have left are memories of previous rapture teases.  Insane that anyone could give that WAG credence, but here we are.

[BuffJim]

Just now, Randomguy said:

Ah, the shamans of one kind of voodoo have been saying that for years.  The date always gets pushed back and all we have left are memories of previous rapture teases.  Insane that anyone could give that WAG credence, but here we are.

Call me insane, but I’m a believer. Anyway the Bible also predicts 2 mass extinction events that will kill 1/3 and 1/4 of the earth’s population. Even if you dismiss that as a fairy tale (which to me is insanity) it’s not hard to envision mass extinction events, war, disease and famine doing in billions. Voila, problem solved. 

[Dottleshead ★]

The world will hit equilibrium soon — don’t worry. People will die off of hunger, starvation, hopelessness, wars, attrition, disease, no glacier water, and Kim Kardashian. I don’t think Razor is helping the cause either.

[Razors Edge ★]

5 minutes ago, BuffJim said:

it’s not hard to envision mass extinction events, war, disease and famine doing in billions. Voila, problem solved. 

For sure.  The Earth (as a planet) laughs off our hubris that anything we do will affect its eventual outcome (being incinerated by our sun), so humans (and to some degree animal life) will deal with our mistakes and achievements, but a million years from now? We'll be gone, and the Earth will still be spinning and whatever is here instead will likely have no idea humans ever existed.   Sci-fi doesn't even really try to go that far into the future - easier just to jump to a distant part of the universe (or even galaxy) and let space travel be too great for it to matter what we've done, are doing, or where we'll eventually end up.

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, Razors Edge said:

We'll be gone, and the Earth will still be spinning and whatever is here instead will likely have no idea humans ever existed.   Sci-fi doesn't even really try to go that far into the future 

Really not much of market for doom and gloom.

[Randomguy]

16 minutes ago, BuffJim said:

Call me insane, but I’m a believer. Anyway the Bible also predicts 2 mass extinction events that will kill 1/3 and 1/4 of the earth’s population. Even if you dismiss that as a fairy tale (which to me is insanity) it’s not hard to envision mass extinction events, war, disease and famine doing in billions. Voila, problem solved. 

Well, you are here, so definitely insane!

Anyway, the bible is not a factual work, and cannot be referenced as a source of anything other than mythology popularly bandied about, although it is culturally important in our time.  We have already had multiple extinction events that have knocked humans about a fair bit, but it ain't prophesy causing it, it is nature.  The committee that slapped the bible together observed diseases that ran rampant and it was obvious that it would happen again and again and again, so it is more than a stretch to say that religion has anything to do with it.

[Razors Edge ★]

3 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

Really not much of market for doom and gloom.

You don't read much sci-fi, eh?

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, Razors Edge said:

You don't read much sci-fi, eh?

Well if you're talking about a time when there's no life, what's there to talk about??  You die.  The end.  Pretty hard to make stories from that.  News flash.  You gotta have life to have stories. Just sayin'.

[Randomguy]

1 minute ago, Dottleshead said:

Well if you're talking about a time when there's no life, what's there to talk about?? 

I once read a sci-fi story told from the point of view of a dinosaur.  It was ok, but the POV stuff was interesting.

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, Dottleshead said:

Well if you're talking about a time when there's no life, what's there to talk about??  You die.  The end.  Pretty hard to make stories from that.  News flash.  You gotta have life to have stories. Just sayin'.

No human life on Earth is a weird interpretation of "no life in the universe".  I haven't really thought it through, but was Luke Skywalker a human? Han Solo?  

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, Randomguy said:

I once read a sci-fi story told from the point of view of a dinosaur.  It was ok, but the POV stuff was interesting.

How is a dinosaur story a sci-fi story?  Or was it brought to life in the future, and we had some cool tech involved  (sort of how Jurassic Park is pop sci-fi)?

[Randomguy]

2 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

How is a dinosaur story a sci-fi story?  Or was it brought to life in the future, and we had some cool tech involved  (sort of how Jurassic Park is pop sci-fi)?

 

Raptor Red is a 1995 American novel by paleontologist Robert T. Bakker. The book is a third-person account of dinosaurs during the Cretaceous Period, told from the point of view of Raptor Red, a female Utahraptor. Raptor Red features many of Bakker's theories regarding dinosaurs' social habits, intelligence, and the world in which they lived.

The book follows a year in Raptor Red's life as she loses her mate, finds her family, and struggles to survive in a hostile environment. Bakker drew inspiration from Ernest Thompson Seton's works that look at life through the eyes of predators, and said that he found it enjoyable to write from a top predator's perspective. Bakker based his portrayals of dinosaurs and other prehistoric wildlife on fossil evidence, as well as studies of modern animals. The book was released in hardcover, paperback, and audiobook formats.

When released, Raptor Red was generally praised: Bakker's anthropomorphism was seen as a unique and positive aspect of the book. Criticisms of the novel included a perceived lack of characterization and average writing. Some scientists, such as paleontologist David B. Norman, took issue with the scientific theories portrayed in the novel, fearing that the public would accept them as fact, while Discovery Channel host Jay Ingram and others defended Bakker's creative decisions as provoking debate and bringing science to a wider audience.

 

[Randomguy]

Just now, Randomguy said:

Criticisms of the novel included a perceived lack of characterization and average writing

The writing was decidedly average, Bakker was not a fiction writer.  I am still glad I read it at the time, but wouldn't suggest you go download it unless you are way into dinosaurs and wonder what they could be thinking, plus are desperate for something to read.

[Dottleshead ★]

5 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

How is a dinosaur story a sci-fi story?  Or was it brought to life in the future, and we had some cool tech involved  (sort of how Jurassic Park is pop sci-fi)?

You're right.  I should have been more clear.  You need intelligent life to have stories written/read/shown/acted/displayed to interpret them.  Even plebes and the lemmings would suffice. But plankton, for example, is going to have to up it's game..

[Randomguy]

26 minutes ago, BuffJim said:

it’s not hard to envision mass extinction events, war, disease and famine doing in billions. Voila, problem solved. 

Not hard at all.  I think it is way more likely that our demise will be from our own hands rather than an asteroid or somesuch.

[Randomguy]

2 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

But plankton, for example, is going to have to up it's game..

I would like to read a story from plankton's point of view.  Are they like the borg?  Daleks?  Dumb shits floating around, telling fart jokes all day?

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, Randomguy said:

Not hard at all.  I think it is way more likely that our demise will be from our own hands rather than an asteroid or somesuch.

Society will break down.  All these folks screaming for Jesus and some such to save them may actually get there wish.  But it will not happen in this realm.  And if they really believe it, they shouldn't be scared of it because they are on their way to the promised land.  Hmmmmm....

[12string]

It's not that there's too many people stuffed into the earth, it's that too many people use too much stuff.

The earth can support a lot more humans, if we learn to be more careful about how we use it.

[Dottleshead ★]

Is it sacrilege to not capitalize promised land?  Does it mean I will devolve into the negative energy of the universe?  FM.  Have I already committed to the dark side?

[Longjohn ★]

19 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

Really not much of market for doom and gloom.

 

[Randomguy]

2 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

Society will break down

Well, we also saw how readily new diseases spread with covid.   With the speed in which humans travel, plus denial and clearly maladaptive behaviors we exhibited throughout the last few years, something worse is definitely gonna happen.  It may happen on the back of some world nuclear war or somesuch and then boom, mega PRI!

[Dottleshead ★]

1 minute ago, Longjohn said:

+1 for a Hee Haw reply.  +2 for a moonshine reply.  

[Dottleshead ★]

2 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Well, we also saw how readily new diseases spread with covid.   With the speed in which humans travel, plus denial and clearly maladaptive behaviors we exhibited throughout the last few years, something worse is definitely gonna happen.  It may happen on the back of some world nuclear war or somesuch and then boom, mega PRI!

This is too heavy for the common man.  It only results into their retracting further into their dogma. We all do what we gotta do I suppose to get through this life.  It is our right.

[jsharr ★]

1 hour ago, Randomguy said:

I think there are way too many people on the earth right now,  Population growth doesn't seem to be slowing down overall, and it is causing all kinds of trouble.

At what point will the carrying capacity be reached?

This is fun and also mortifying to think about.

[Randomguy]

4 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

This is too heavy for the common man.  It only results into their retracting further into their dogma. We all do what we gotta do I suppose to get through this life.  It is our right.

I don't know, I think many will recognize that it will be just time to kiss our assess goodbye once a tipping point is reached.   Whether or not you believe that covid was created in a lab or a wet market in Wuhan, people will attempt to weaponize a biological agent to use locally.  When that gets out of hand, because it certainly seems like it will, then the check will be in the mail.  Or some other scenario like this will happen.

[Dottleshead ★]

10 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

I don't know, I think many will recognize that it will be just time to kiss our assess goodbye once a tipping point is reached.   Whether or not you believe that covid was created in a lab or a wet market in Wuhan, people will attempt to weaponize a biological agent to use locally.  When that gets out of hand, because it certainly seems like it will, then the check will be in the mail.  Or some other scenario like this will happen.

Looking at it at face value does not bode well for us humans.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BuffJim]

48 minutes ago, 12string said:

It's not that there's too many people stuffed into the earth, it's that too many people use too much stuff.

The earth can support a lot more humans, if we learn to be more careful about how we use it.

I think we could support 12-15 Billion. I think fresh water, not food will be the hardest to provide. We’ve already overtaxed our water resources in many areas. 

[MoseySusan]

1 hour ago, Dottleshead said:

You die.  The end.  Pretty hard to make stories from that. 

Except that Ray Bradbury short story about the smart home that kept opening doors and turning on lights long after the human occupants had been vaporized by an atomic bomb, or something. “There Will Come Soft Rains” published in 1950. 

[Randomguy]

15 minutes ago, BuffJim said:

I think we could support 12-15 Billion. I think fresh water, not food will be the hardest to provide. We’ve already overtaxed our water resources in many areas. 

The food and water is all tied in.  Resources are gonna be a thing, look how we have to divvy up the Colorado river, and and starting to exclude Saudi's from owning almond-growing acreage.  Things will get pissy when resources get scarce.  Wars will be fought over water, no matter what the cover reason given to justify it.  

[Bikeguy]

1 hour ago, Randomguy said:

I don't know, I think many will recognize that it will be just time to kiss our assess goodbye once a tipping point is reached.  

We are at the tipping point.  

8 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

The food and water is all tied in. 

A LGS only has 3 days (or a bit more) of food on the shelves.  We have learned that supply chains can break.  

1 hour ago, Randomguy said:

Whether or not you believe that covid was created in a lab or a wet market in Wuhan, people will attempt to weaponize a biological agent to use locally.  When that gets out of hand, because it certainly seems like it will

Or...  covid could have been a test case for biological weapon use.  

Apparently only 500K is "the" correct size of the world population. The Georgia Guidestones told us that.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

55 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

Looking at it at face value does not bode well for us humans.

Yeah... I suspect in our life time we will find out just how bad it will get.  

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. 

[BuffJim]

1 hour ago, 12string said:

Ignore botched post

[Dottleshead ★]

2 hours ago, BuffJim said:

I think we could support 12-15 Billion.

Why do we need that many people? I say we limit it to 3 billion. I’ll volunteer to go but nobody takes my life. I decide where and when. Geez.

[Further]

We have too many people, yet not enough workers 

[Wilbur ★]

Depends on technology and food supply.  Right now, 10 billion without much change.  If diets were changed to vegan, probably twice that.  

[Randomguy]

15 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

 If diets were changed to vegan, probably twice that.  

Only a maniac would do that.

[Razors Edge ★]

27 minutes ago, Further said:

We have too many people, yet not enough workers 

We could run some sort of swap at the border?  Hand off an 80 yr old retiree (send to Panama!), and pick up 4 hard working 20 yrs in trade?

BOOM!

[Dottleshead ★]

1 hour ago, Wilbur said:

Depends on technology and food supply.  Right now, 10 billion without much change.  If diets were changed to vegan, probably twice that.  

Let’s promote almonds!!

[Dottleshead ★]

1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

We could run some sort of swap at the border?  Hand off an 80 yr old retiree (send to Panama!), and pick up 4 hard working 20 yrs in trade?

BOOM!

You should make that trade! No brainer. But lower the old man age to 60.

[shootingstar]

6 hours ago, BuffJim said:

I think we could support 12-15 Billion. I think fresh water, not food will be the hardest to provide. We’ve already overtaxed our water resources in many areas. 

Fresh water is already a big problem in certain areas of the world.  I agree it will get worse, because that fresh water is disappearing faster. We want the irrigation in California, Alberta, etc. for their farms, the golf courses in places in the world that normally wouldn't sustain golf course vs. more food farms, etc.  Well hello, desalination of ocean water. But still doesn't solve magnitude of growing problem.

 

[Dottleshead ★]

The only way this is going to get handled is lock down and martial law

[Dirtyhip]

We are there. 8 billion.

I expect to see more famine, wars and pandemics. 

[shootingstar]

25 minutes ago, Dirtyhip said:

We are there. 8 billion.

I expect to see more famine, wars and pandemics. 

So that will "control" those growth numbers a bit.  Over 6 million worldwide died from covid.   OUr natural growth is slowing down, because the fertility rate has dropped in North America, Japan, S. Korea, China (yes, folks) over the past 6 decades, some European countries. 

 

[shootingstar]

8 hours ago, MoseySusan said:

Except that Ray Bradbury short story about the smart home that kept opening doors and turning on lights long after the human occupants had been vaporized by an atomic bomb, or something. “There Will Come Soft Rains” published in 1950. 

I wasn't aware.

How creepy and how easily true it could become.

[Dottleshead ★]

I guess we’ve reached a new era: 

“Make War, Not Love”

[Razors Edge ★]

14 hours ago, Dottleshead said:

You should make that trade! No brainer. But lower the old man age to 60.

Exactly! It's a WIN-WIN. 

If folks don't want to be part of the swap, they can just keep working.  Only retired folks will be part of the trades.  Not working at 80? Here's your one-way ticket to a tropical wonderland where your retirement dollars will stretch forever. In exchange, we get 4 new hard working folks eager to enjoy the American Dream AND their tax dollars for the next 60 years to prop up the folks we've sent down to Panama (Costa Rica, Ecuador, Portugal, Ghana, Thailand, wherever they want).

[Dottleshead ★]

4 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Exactly! It's a WIN-WIN. 

If folks don't want to be part of the swap, they can just keep working.  Only retired folks will be part of the trades.  Not working at 80? Here's your one-way ticket to a tropical wonderland where your retirement dollars will stretch forever. In exchange, we get 4 new hard working folks eager to enjoy the American Dream AND their tax dollars for the next 60 years to prop up the folks we've sent down to Panama (Costa Rica, Ecuador, Portugal, Ghana, Thailand, wherever they want).

I like it!  This way social security remains solvent too.