Another great law for you anti-law people! Yay!

[Randomguy]

If you don't like this law, you are clearly too dumb to realize the advantages of having any laws at all.  Only in CA, though, hopefully this will be in more states very soon.  

---------------------------------

 

Attorney General Bonta’s Sponsored Bill to Ban Hidden Fees in California Signed into Law

1. Press Release
2.  
3. Attorney General Bonta’s Sponsored Bill to Ban Hidden Fees…

Saturday, October 7, 2023

Contact: (916) 210-6000, agpressoffice@doj.ca.gov

OAKLAND — California Attorney General Rob Bonta today issued a statement in response to Senate Bill 478 (SB 478), a bill that he sponsored, being signed into law by Governor Gavin Newsom. Coauthored by Senator Bill Dodd (D-Napa) and Senator Nancy Skinner (D-Berkeley), the legislation will prohibit hidden fees (also called ‘junk fees’) in California beginning on July 1, 2024. Hidden fees are fees in which a seller uses an artificially low headline price to attract a customer and usually either discloses additional required fees in smaller print, or reveals additional unavoidable charges later in the buying process.

“Today, California is eliminating hidden fees,” said Attorney General Rob Bonta. “These deceptive fees prevent us from knowing how much we will be charged at the outset. They are bad for consumers and bad for competition. They cost Americans tens of billions of dollars each year. They hit families who are just trying to make ends meet the hardest. And, because a growing list of websites, apps, and brick-and-mortar businesses are using them, they penalize companies that are upfront and transparent with their prices. With the signing of SB 478, California now has the most effective piece of legislation in the nation to tackle this problem. The price Californians see will be the price they pay. I am deeply grateful to Senators Dodd and Skinner, the authors of SB 478, for their commitment to protecting consumers.”

“With the governor’s signing of this historic bill, we can finally take aim at dishonest junk fees that are tacked onto seemingly everything – from online concert tickets to hotel reservations,” said Senator Bill Dodd. “Now we can put the consumer first and create a level playing field for those businesses that advertise the real price, up front. I appreciate everyone who worked to end these dishonest charges that boost corporate profits at the expense of those who can least afford it.”

“California sent a clear message today: The days of bait-and-switch pricing practices are over,” said Senator Nancy Skinner. “With Gov. Newsom’s signing of SB 478, Californians will know up front how much they’re being asked to pay, and no longer be surprised by hidden junk fees when buying a concert or sports ticket or booking hotel rooms for their family vacation.” 

After announcing that he was sponsoring SB 478 in February 2023, Attorney General Bonta urged the California Legislature to approve the legislation in March 2023, heeding the call from the Biden-Harris Administration and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau for states to better address the nationwide concern of hidden fees. In May 2023, he held a press conference in San Diego to highlight the bill’s importance. 

Deceptive price advertising is a significant problem facing consumers that appears to be proliferating in more and more sectors of the economy. Hidden required fees are now charged for a variety of goods and services, such as lodging, tickets for live events, and restaurants and food delivery. These fees, when mandatory, are a deceptive way of hiding the true price of a good or service. 

The text of the legislation is available here. 

 

[Airehead]

I think this will just make them change tactics 

[shootingstar]

The spirit of the legislation is not bad. Just trying to figure out the consumer's recourse of action if they are dealing with junk fees and if there is legislated deadline for refund of junk fees for consumer.

[jsharr ★]

How will affect shoplifting and looting? 

[Randomguy]

3 minutes ago, jsharr said:

How will affect shoplifting and looting? 

It will crash the grid.

[maddmaxx ★]

What's a hidden fee in California?

[Randomguy]

1 hour ago, Airehead said:

I think this will just make them change tactics 

Or at least make them advertise the total cost of something, that is a good tactic change.

[Dottleshead ★]

Like usual, it's going to boil down to how they define "junk fees".  They'll find some way around it.  They always do.

[MoseySusan]

16 minutes ago, Dottleshead said:

Like usual, it's going to boil down to how they define "junk fees".  They'll find some way around it.  They always do.

All the better to keep their business thriving, pay wages, and boost the economy! 
 

Have you people been paying attention? We’re capitalists here. (Fist on table.)  Dagnabbit. 

[JerrySTL ★]

Will this include the biggest hidden junk fee of all: the sales tax? Something tells me no as it's the government's own hidden fee.

[MoseySusan]

6 minutes ago, JerrySTL said:

Will this include the biggest hidden junk fee of all: the sales tax? Something tells me no as it's the government's own hidden fee.

Except it’s not hidden? Sales tax is pretty much a ballot issue. 

[maddmaxx ★]

1 minute ago, MoseySusan said:

Except it’s not hidden? Sales tax is pretty much a ballot issue. 

The state needs money to provide services.  If not a sales tax then some other tax would have to increase.  It's a pay me now or pay me now situation.  Roads, bridges, water and sewer services, police, fire, lifeguards and hundreds of other things cost money.  Attempts to lower taxes seem to ignore the eventual lowering of services.

[KrAzY]

Can they sign a bill to stop adding fees and other bills into things they are trying to pass in congress? 

[maddmaxx ★]

11 minutes ago, KrAzY said:

Can they sign a bill to stop adding fees and other bills into things they are trying to pass in congress? 

That would be one of the greatest laws or amendments ever passed but riders are the lifeblood of congressional pork so don't hold your breath.  

[Bikeguy]

2 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

What's a hidden fee in California?

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240SB478

[Bikeguy]

Apparently CA must hate Ikea?   

From the link above.

(11) Advertising furniture without clearly indicating that it is unassembled if that is the case.

[Bikeguy]

This is a good one... 

(19) Inserting an unconscionable provision in the contract.

Yeah...  This is a law we need.  

[Dottleshead ★]

1 hour ago, MoseySusan said:

Except it’s not hidden? Sales tax is pretty much a ballot issue. 

Stop it!  Stop making sense.  

 

[Bikeguy]

2 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

What's a hidden fee in California?

Here you go...     This explains it all.  

24   (A) Charging or receiving an unreasonable fee to prepare, aid, or advise any prospective applicant, applicant, or recipient in the procurement, maintenance, or securing of public social services.

(B) For purposes of this paragraph:

 

 

(i) “Public social services” means those activities and functions of state and local government administered or supervised by the State Department of Health Care Services, the State Department of Public Health, or the State Department of Social Services, and involved in providing aid or services, or both, including health care services, and medical assistance, to those persons who, because of their economic circumstances or social condition, are in need of that aid or those services and may benefit from them.

(ii) “Public social services” also includes activities and functions administered or supervised by the United States Department of Veterans Affairs or the California Department of Veterans Affairs involved in providing aid or services, or both, to veterans, including pension benefits.

 

(iii) “Unreasonable fee” means a fee that is exorbitant and disproportionate to the services performed. Factors to be considered, if appropriate, in determining the reasonableness of a fee, are based on the circumstances existing at the time of the service and shall include, but not be limited to, all of the following:

   (I) The time and effort required.

   (II) The novelty and difficulty of the services.

   (III) The skill required to perform the services.

   (IV) The nature and length of the professional relationship.

   (V) The experience, reputation, and ability of the person providing the services.

 

[maddmaxx ★]

12 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

Apparently CA must hate Ikea?   

From the link above.

(11) Advertising furniture without clearly indicating that it is unassembled if that is the case.

How bad is it when people don't know that Ikea sells unassembled furniture.

[Randomguy]

25 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

This is a law we need.

Duh, yes.  The law is needed because of all the hidden fees tacked onto a final cost of an advertised product, the final cost not being advertised.  Have you not tried to buy a sport or concert ticket or a get a hotel room?  Everyone should be aware of bait and switch tactics unless they have lived under a rock with the trolls doing the bait and switch to the detriment of the populace.

This is easy stuff, super layup on what should have been done right from the get-go.  Like I said, everyone would have to be dumber than shit not to want a law of this nature, it is as common sense as it gets.

[maddmaxx ★]

I notice that the state that passed the law included exemptions for all of the state's hidden fees such as taxes, excise charges etc.  

[Bikeguy]

Lawyers get a free pass too... 

(C) This paragraph shall not apply to attorneys licensed to practice law in California,

[shootingstar]

22 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

Here you go...     This explains it all.  

24   (A) Charging or receiving an unreasonable fee to prepare, aid, or advise any prospective applicant, applicant, or recipient in the procurement, maintenance, or securing of public social services.

(B) For purposes of this paragraph:

(i) “Public social services” means those activities and functions of state and local government administered or supervised by the State Department of Health Care Services, the State Department of Public Health, or the State Department of Social Services, and involved in providing aid or services, or both, including health care services, and medical assistance, to those persons who, because of their economic circumstances or social condition, are in need of that aid or those services and may benefit from them.

(ii) “Public social services” also includes activities and functions administered or supervised by the United States Department of Veterans Affairs or the California Department of Veterans Affairs involved in providing aid or services, or both, to veterans, including pension benefits.

(iii) “Unreasonable fee” means a fee that is exorbitant and disproportionate to the services performed. Factors to be considered, if appropriate, in determining the reasonableness of a fee, are based on the circumstances existing at the time of the service and shall include, but not be limited to, all of the following:

   (I) The time and effort required.

   (II) The novelty and difficulty of the services.

   (III) The skill required to perform the services.

   (IV) The nature and length of the professional relationship.

   (V) The experience, reputation, and ability of the person providing the services.

Without me reading the entire bill and all the govn't committee report(s) which analyzed this problem that eventually led to crafting the bill which amended sections of the current base legislation, it appears to me that the junk fee would be 3rd parties outside of govn't, ie. private sector firms that claim to assist recipients of health care, etc. which is NOT the govn't but unscrupulous firms trying to weasel money out of the eligible recipients for other services private sector firm is providing, but govn't is not the service provider at all.

In Canada, government bodies clearly state their fees when you get services from govn't service provider.  It's not hidden, ie. provincial sales tax (Alberta doesn't have it), etc., 911 (on your telecommunications phone bill), etc.

"unreasonable fee" seems to be open to alot of debate, depending on the complainant.

[Bikeguy]

1 minute ago, shootingstar said:

"unreasonable fee" seems to be open to alot of debate, depending on the complainant.

Exactly..  the 'law' is appears to be rather vague about what is unreasonable.  

I suspect the lawyers will make a lot of money.  

[maddmaxx ★]

59 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

Exactly..  the 'law' is appears to be rather vague about what is unreasonable.  

I suspect the lawyers will make a lot of money.  

All of these vague laws are written by lawyers.

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

4 hours ago, MoseySusan said:

All the better to keep their business thriving, pay wages, and boost the economy! 
 

Have you people been paying attention? We’re capitalists here. (Fist on table.)  Dagnabbit. 

Your sarcasm, thinly disguised as humor, detracts from the generally congenial and tolerant atmosphere of the Forum.

Don't feign innocence; you know exactly what you're doing and it's clear to the rest of the Forum too.

Others have already followed your lead, mimicking your behavior and likewise detracting from the congeniality that typifies virtually all our conversations.

You alone control your behavior, and make the choices of what behaviors to manifest here.  I look forward toward your exhibiting behaviors that contribute to genial and affable discourse, which I'm sure you enjoy just the same as everyone here.

[Kzoo]

10 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Others have already followed your lead, mimicking your behavior and likewise detracting from the congeniality that typifies virtually all our conversations.

I knew I learned it from someone.  😎

[MoseySusan]

18 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Don't feign innocence; you know exactly what you're doing and it's clear to the rest of the Forum too.

No innocence feigned. We have more in common than not, and a lot of history between us. On balance I lean capitalist; compassionate capitalism…or whatever HW called it. There’s plenty of space in the Cafe for all modes of expression. 

[MoseySusan]

26 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

I knew I learned it from someone.  😎

I’m waiting for @Thaddeus Kosciuszkoto shame @Randomguy for his lack of congeniality. 

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

20 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

No innocence feigned. We have more in common than not, and a lot of history between us. On balance I lean capitalist; compassionate capitalism…or whatever HW called it. There’s plenty of space in the Cafe for all modes of expression. 

Elegant and appropriate words, which hopefully will be reflected by equally elegant and appropriate behavior.

[MoseySusan]

3 hours ago, Randomguy said:

Like I said, everyone would have to be dumber than shit not to want a law of this nature, it is as common sense as it gets.

This doesn’t ring with a tone of “genial and affable discourse.” I’m pretty sure he just called all the free market advocates ignorant.

[MoseySusan]

1 minute ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Elegant and appropriate words, which hopefully will be reflected by equally elegant and appropriate behavior.

No. I think I’m going to persist.

[maddmaxx ★]

13 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Elegant and appropriate words, which hopefully will be reflected by equally elegant and appropriate behavior.

After all, we can't all be sailors.

[MoseySusan]

20 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

After all, we can't all be sailors.

Got it. I won’t use dagnabbit anymore. 

[Bikeguy]

28 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

This doesn’t ring with a tone of “genial and affable discourse.” I’m pretty sure he just called all the free market advocates ignorant.

Yep..   There needs to be a law against that.      Then RG would sue the state for violating his 1st amendment right.  (or not... he likes laws) 

[bikeman564™]

maybe people need to learn to read

[Razors Edge ★]

4 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

maybe people need to learn to read

How do you read and understand all those specs and requirement documents to make your valves and such?  Can't they dumb it down a bit so all of us understand it easily? Why should I have to go back to school and get another degree just to deal with that stuff?

Can we get a law about that? Make techno-jargon accessible to the masses or forbid it?

[bikeman564™]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

How do you read and understand all those specs and requirement documents to make your valves and such?  Can't they dumb it down a bit so all of us understand it easily? Why should I have to go back to school and get another degree just to deal with that stuff?

Can we get a law about that? Make techno-jargon accessible to the masses or forbid it?

By reading them over and over and over again. They're written for a specific audience

and btw, I don't read fine print. I was just making a joke

[Razors Edge ★]

11 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

How do you read and understand all those specs and requirement documents to make your valves and such?  Can't they dumb it down a bit so all of us understand it easily? Why should I have to go back to school and get another degree just to deal with that stuff?

Can we get a law about that? Make techno-jargon accessible to the masses or forbid it?

Could you instead get them to make the specs a single sentence in simple English - maybe with a just a drawing?  You have pull with those folks, so maybe use it so all of us can feel better.

[bikeman564™]

11 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Could you instead get them to make the specs a single sentence in simple English - maybe with a just a drawing?  You have pull with those folks, so maybe use it so all of us can feel better.

 

Idiots guide to the boiler code

[Randomguy]

12 hours ago, MoseySusan said:

This doesn’t ring with a tone of “genial and affable discourse.” I’m pretty sure he just called all the free market advocates ignorant.

There is an incredible amount of ignorance from folks that don't want laws, civilization, and economies to make sense for the majority, or to make sense only to them.  Subtlety doesn't work with people who purposely remain in a state of perpetual ignorance and /or expect others to remain in ignorance to suit them.  Stop it, fuckwits, you suck.  

Hint: If you are not in the majority and you want the majority to conform to your way of life with no sympathy or consideration for others unlike you, you are a straight-up assface, selfish AF,and deserve to immediately and repeatedly be called out.  Which I will, btw, and I encourage you to do the same.

Plus, I will repeat that you all would have to be dumber than fuck not to see the value of this law.  It is true, you know.  

[maddmaxx ★]

29 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

There is an incredible amount of ignorance from folks that don't want laws, civilization, and economies to make sense for the majority, or to make sense only to them.  Subtlety doesn't work with people who purposely remain in a state of perpetual ignorance and /or expect others to remain in ignorance to suit them.  Stop it, fuckwits, you suck.  

Hint: If you are not in the majority and you want the majority to conform to your way of life with no sympathy or consideration for others unlike you, you are a straight-up assface, selfish AF,and deserve to immediately and repeatedly be called out.  Which I will, btw, and I encourage you to do the same.

Plus, I will repeat that you all would have to be dumber than fuck not to see the value of this law.  It is true, you know.  

Be careful who you call ignorant.

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, maddmaxx said:

Be careful who you call ignorant.

I don't think they realize who he's talking about. It's sort of in the definition of the word. 

[maddmaxx ★]

14 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

I don't think they realize who he's talking about. It's sort of in the definition of the word. 

I don't think he cares.  Shockjock syndrome.

[Razors Edge ★]

2 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I don't think he cares.  Shockjock syndrome.

If you're tuning into the show, maybe you enjoy it more than you're letting on?

[Randomguy]

4 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I don't think he cares. 

 

So, not shockjock stuff, but laws set in stone hundreds of years ago are all we need?  Nothing new?  How does that actually work, walk me through it.

 

[Kzoo]

25 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

I don't think they realize who he's talking about. It's sort of in the definition of the word. 

Huh?

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, Kzoo said:

Huh?

No idea.  AI confuses the best of us.

[Kzoo]

3 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

No idea.  AI confuses the best of us.

Who?