Interesting

[Wilbur ★]

From grain on the field to a steak on the table, Carbon tax has been added 9 times and HST is levied at every stage.  Why is food so expensive these days?  

[Razors Edge ★]

6 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Why is food so expensive these days?  

It's an interesting question.  Spending is usually looked at as a whole - ie you have some amount of money to spend on things each year and it can be easily broken out into categories like housing, healthcare, food, entertainment, etc..  Probably along the lines of what @MickinMD tracks.  Is the "food" category going up relative to last year, a decade ago, a century ago?   Or does it feel that way because we're "close" to it - ie in a grocery story with regularity while our other costs are less in-our-face?

[Kirby]

I'm actually amazed we can afford any food when you consider what goes into even a simple product.  Farmer's land and all their costs, further impacted by storm losses.  Personnel and machinery costs to harvest.  Then shipping costs including trucks, maintenance, salary, tolls ($100 toll for GW Bridge peak for trucks), and gas.  Then the costs of the supermarket to sell things property taxes, electiricty, personnel costs etc.

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of costs (and if it's manufactured or processed add another couple levels of expenses) so I'm often amazed at how we ever get affordable food.

[Kzoo]

15 minutes ago, Kirby said:

Farmer's land and all their costs, further impacted by storm losses.  Personnel and machinery costs to harvest.  Then shipping costs including trucks, maintenance, salary,

From a farmer's perspective, this is meaningless.  Farmers have no impact on the price they get for their crops.  It is all commodity board pricing.  They can lock in early contracts but those are hope and a prayer strategies.  Farmers can dictate when they sell but not for what price.  If it costs them $3.00 and pound to raise beef and the price is $2.00 they either keep the beef on the hoof and continue to feed it or ship it at a loss.  Same for grain and other ag commodities. 

 

[12string]

Couple factors right off the bat:

severe weather has been depleting herds.  Cattle are down about 15% over a few years ago, pigs and chickens too, just not as much.

4 companies control about 90% of the market for meats.  They are having trouble hiring.  And they are colluding on pricing, making record profit margins while their costs increase

The war in Ukraine is significantly disrupting the grain market 

The number of truckers is dropping rather rapidly.  So shipping costs more.

Low income employees (store clerks, restaurant staff) are finally getting paid a decent wage.

We went to a pizza place last night - an uppity pizza place in the city.  $140 for 4 (with tip & drinks)

[dinneR ★]

6 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

From a farmer's perspective, this is meaningless.  Farmers have no impact on the price they get for their crops.  It is all commodity board pricing.  They can lock in early contracts but those are hope and a prayer strategies.  Farmers can dictate when they sell but not for what price.  If it costs them $3.00 and pound to raise beef and the price is $2.00 they either keep the beef on the hoof and continue to feed it or ship it at a loss.  Same for grain and other ag commodities. 

My farmer gave me five pounds of beef recently. He had too much. I guess it pays to know your farmer.

Mick would argue I pay too much for food, but I like to know where my food comes from when I can.

 

[Razors Edge ★]

28 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

If it costs them $3.00 and pound to raise beef and the price is $2.00

Why the gloom and doom?  How about if it costs them $2.00 a pound to raise beef and the price is $3.00??  Win-win, Farmer Kzoo!

[Randomguy]

 

1 hour ago, Kirby said:

I'm actually amazed we can afford any food when you consider what goes into even a simple product.  Farmer's land and all their costs, further impacted by storm losses.  Personnel and machinery costs to harvest.  Then shipping costs including trucks, maintenance, salary, tolls ($100 toll for GW Bridge peak for trucks), and gas.  Then the costs of the supermarket to sell things property taxes, electiricty, personnel costs etc.

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of costs (and if it's manufactured or processed add another couple levels of expenses) so I'm often amazed at how we ever get affordable food.

At least housing is affordable, though!

[Randomguy]

51 minutes ago, 12string said:

They are having trouble hiring.  And they are colluding on pricing, making record profit margins while their costs increase

The finished product has pricing that reflects that collusion and profiteering, mostly.  I am not sympathetic to their problems or excuses as much as you would think.  Trouble hiring while making record profits?  Excuses, again.  Pay better and you'll never have a shortage of workers and those tiny violins can all stop the so sad music for the meat barons.

Monopolies (or close to them) are very bad for everyone but the already entrenched.   Seems to be a common theme with this strict capitalism assholishness people like to yammer on about, like we are some utopian society where we are all wiping out butts with $10 bills because all the excess cash is falling out of our wallets all the time.

[Parsnip Totin Jack ★]

Without googling what is HST?

[Wilbur ★]

45 minutes ago, Parsnip Totin Jack said:

Without googling what is HST?

13% Harmonized Sales Tax.  Part Federal (GST), part provincial (PST).   So, they are taxing the carbon tax and it is about to jump 23 cents per litre of fuel April 1. 

[Dottleshead ★]

35 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

13% Harmonized Sales Tax.  Part Federal (GST), part provincial (PST).   So, they are taxing the carbon tax and it is about to jump 23 cents per litre of fuel April 1. 

Something's gotta give.  Maybe porous, non-enforceable borders?  I mean it's wide open in the South.

[Kzoo]

1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

Why the gloom and doom?  How about if it costs them $2.00 a pound to raise beef and the price is $3.00??  Win-win, Farmer Kzoo!

BM troll

[Razors Edge ★]

13 hours ago, Kzoo said:

BM troll

Not all farmers are horrible businesspeople, I hope 

[Ralphie ★]

16 hours ago, Parsnip Totin Jack said:

Without googling what is HST?

Houston

[Wilbur ★]

The higher the tax, the higher the inflation, the higher the interest rates, the happier the banks. You don't think the COVID bank relief was because bankers are nice, do you?

[sheep_herder ★]

18 hours ago, 12string said:

 

We went to a pizza place last night - an uppity pizza place in the city.  $140 for 4 (with tip & drinks)

Did you have to wear a coat and tie?

[MoseySusan]

13 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

The higher the tax, the higher the inflation, the higher the interest rates, the happier the banks. You don't think the COVID bank relief was because bankers are nice, do you?

So, are we talking torches and pitchfork time? Flip the Audis and start them on fire? Occupy Wall Street? 

[Razors Edge ★]

5 minutes ago, sheep_herder said:

Did you have to wear a coat and tie?

Probably pants, at a minimum.  Well, or a skirt/dress/kilt.

[sheep_herder ★]

2 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Not all farmers are horrible businesspeople, I hope 

They are not, but you need a better understanding of the livestock business and the factors affecting it in various regions of the country.

[Razors Edge ★]

3 minutes ago, sheep_herder said:

They are not, but you need a better understanding of the livestock business and the factors affecting it in various regions of the country.

"They" need to, I guess.  "I" don't from the perspective of the farmers know what they're doing, and they're smart enough to do it.   I support the farmers with my wallet so they can spend their time on their efforts to run their businesses.

[Wilbur ★]

8 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

So, are we talking torches and pitchfork time? Flip the Audis and start them on fire? Occupy Wall Street? 

You don't watch the news do you?  

[sheep_herder ★]

7 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

"They" need to, I guess.  "I" don't from the perspective of the farmers know what they're doing, and they're smart enough to do it.   I support the farmers with my wallet so they can spend their time on their efforts to run their businesses.

I assume you think daily about how much the farmer gets from each dollar you spend. Sad and sometimes interesting to watch how different producers spend or invest monies make in boom years. 

[Razors Edge ★]

1 minute ago, sheep_herder said:

I assume you think daily about how much the farmer gets from each dollar you spend. Sad and sometimes interesting to watch how different producers spend or invest monies make in boom years. 

It's not my business to know their business.  I'm sure my business gets money from them, but they don't know (or care) to know mine.  Sort of the way the system works - things cost what they cost and folks decide if they want them or not based on those costs.  Assuming a producer is paying attention to their business, they know their costs and the price consumers will pay and pivot their business model appropriately.

[sheep_herder ★]

3 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

 

Assuming a producer is paying attention to their business, they know their costs and the price consumers will pay and pivot their business model appropriately.

Dream on, and don't you complain about weather forecasting in your part of the country. We can continue this 'back and forth' but to no benefit to either of us.

[MoseySusan]

23 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

You don't watch the news do you?  

The ones that report we’re digging deep to provide weapons? Meh… I’m going to Disneyland. Where colonizers making slaves is fun! 

[12string]

17 hours ago, Wilbur said:

13% Harmonized Sales Tax.  Part Federal (GST), part provincial (PST).   So, they are taxing the carbon tax and it is about to jump 23 cents per litre of fuel April 1. 

Whew!  That won't affect us in America, we only buy gallons of fuel!

[Razors Edge ★]

1 hour ago, sheep_herder said:

Dream on, and don't you complain about weather forecasting in your part of the country. We can continue this 'back and forth' but to no benefit to either of us.

You are confusing me 

I'm stating farmers are intelligent people making the best business decisions they can.  

You're tossing in "weather forecasting".  That's not something I care about (for this discussion).  That local farmer would (and should) care about that sort of thing. My thinking is they DO.  But that has a totally different impact on the folks way down the line buying the production from their farm. who will just see a price drop or a price increase or no price change.  

I'm at a loss as to where you disagree with me, but maybe that's the game today?

[sheep_herder ★]

3 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

You are confusing me 

I'm stating farmers are intelligent people making the best business decisions they can.  

You're tossing in "weather forecasting".  That's not something I care about (for this discussion).  That local farmer would (and should) care about that sort of thing. My thinking is they DO.  But that has a totally different impact on the folks way down the line buying the production from their farm. who will just see a price drop or a price increase or no price change.  

I'm at a loss as to where you disagree with me, but maybe that's the game today?

Not disagreeing, just implying that making the right decisions in agriculture is not necessarily the same as making decisions in other businesses. You really should care about weather and climate and how it impacts agriculture, as it effects will gradually trickle down to affect you. The end!

[Razors Edge ★]

10 minutes ago, sheep_herder said:

Not disagreeing, just implying that making the right decisions in agriculture is not necessarily the same as making decisions in other businesses. You really should care about weather and climate and how it impacts agriculture, as it effects will gradually trickle down to affect you. The end!

Good! I figured we were on the same general page.  And yes, I do care about the broader picture for sure - weather, climate, infrastructure, civil war, foreign wars, and many things impact agriculture and society at large.  We pay one way or the other for all those things. Luckily, the US has had a lot of tailwinds in those regards for quite a while, and with agile maneuvering, hopefully we can keep those as tailwinds and not headwinds. We'll see.

[Wilbur ★]

2 hours ago, MoseySusan said:

The ones that report we’re digging deep to provide weapons? Meh… I’m going to Disneyland. Where colonizers making slaves is fun! 

No, the ones were farmers in Europe and Canada are protesting en masse against carbon taxes and nitrogen reductions.  They are literally using pitchforks and torches plus a whole lot of heavy equipment. 

[Wilbur ★]

2 hours ago, 12string said:

Whew!  That won't affect us in America, we only buy gallons of fuel!

Well maybe it will make the conversion and come to a pump near you!   

[12string]

56 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Well maybe it will make the conversion and come to a pump near you!   

My gas tank is 12.6 gallons.  Isn't there a different sized nozzle for liters?  

[MoseySusan]

7 hours ago, Wilbur said:

No, the ones were farmers in Europe and Canada are protesting en masse against carbon taxes and nitrogen reductions.  They are literally using pitchforks and torches plus a whole lot of heavy equipment. 

Sorry, Wilbur. Not a recent headline to be found on NPR, PBS, Reuters or AP.

Reuters reported EU farmers protesting a month ago, but no updates. 

[Wilbur ★]

Not surprised

[Bikeguy]

On 3/11/2024 at 5:30 PM, Wilbur said:

23 cents per litre of fuel April 1. 

That's $0.87 per gallon.  

[Bikeguy]

Our state is working on being #1 for taxes on gas.   We are #2 now but an automatic increase takes effect on July 1.  

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-no-2-in-the-nation-for-gas-taxes/

[maddmaxx ★]

18 hours ago, MoseySusan said:

So, are we talking torches and pitchfork time? Flip the Audis and start them on fire? Occupy Wall Street? 

Can you knit.  I'll attempt to arrange a front row seat for you.

_Tricoteuse

[Mr. Silly]

9 hours ago, MoseySusan said:

Sorry, Wilbur. Not a recent headline to be found on NPR, PBS, Reuters or AP.

Reuters reported EU farmers protesting a month ago, but no updates. 

The only EU farmers I heard were Polish farmers protesting and blocking grain from Ukraine.  It had nothing to do with carbon, HST or nitrogen taxes though.  Reading between the lines, I see they're just trying to reduce supply to increase prices so profits increase.

[Bikeguy]

1 hour ago, Mr. Silly said:

It had nothing to do with carbon, HST or nitrogen taxes though.  Reading between the lines, I see they're just trying to reduce supply to increase prices so profits increase.

I used the Google searched with "why are farmers protesting in the eu 2024"

This article from 2-20-24 helps to explain. 

https://www.voanews.com/a/here-s-why-farmers-are-protesting-in-europe/7494997.html

 

Farmers are protesting across the European Union, saying they are facing rising costs and taxes, red tape, excessive environmental rules and competition from cheap food imports.

Demonstrations have been taking place for weeks in countries that include France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland, Spain, Italy and Greece.

My read between the lines...  The EU is paying hommage to the green goddess.  That's driving up the costs to the EU farmers. For example banning nitrogen fertilizers reduces crop output.  Less output for more cost. Farmers use lots of fuel to farm.

The market place solves the problem by importing foods from countries that don't have most of the self imposed rules,  so their crops are cheaper. 

Kind of ironic you choke off the local farmers to save the planet.  But the result is you now use more fuel to import cheaper foods from other places, that don't have bans on nitrogen or tax carbon, etc... and the food all costs more.

 

[maddmaxx ★]

Unintended consequences.  Be careful what you wish for.

[Razors Edge ★]

10 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

I used the Google searched with "why are farmers protesting in the eu 2024"

This article from 2-20-24 helps to explain. 

https://www.voanews.com/a/here-s-why-farmers-are-protesting-in-europe/7494997.html

Farmers are protesting across the European Union, saying they are facing rising costs and taxes, red tape, excessive environmental rules and competition from cheap food imports.

Demonstrations have been taking place for weeks in countries that include France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland, Spain, Italy and Greece.

My read between the lines...  The EU is paying hommage to the green goddess.  That's driving up the costs to the EU farmers. For example banning nitrogen fertilizers reduces crop output.  Less output for more cost. Farmers use lots of fuel to farm.

The market place solves the problem by importing foods from countries that don't have most of the self imposed rules,  so their crops are cheaper. 

Kind of ironic you choke off the local farmers to save the planet.  But the result is you now use more fuel to import cheaper foods from other places, that don't have bans on nitrogen or tax carbon, etc...

Yep - there are enough challenges to go around, it often feels like doing nothing is the best answer.  

Its sort of the classic "what's in it for me" decision we all make when doing something as simple as choosing which bin to toss "trash" into - 1) the appropriate one (ie recyclables in a recycling can, non-recyclable in a trash/landfill can,  or compostable in the compost bin, etc)., or 2) all into the trash can, or 3) all into the nearest can, or 4) out the window or into the gutter. 

IOW "why" choose the most difficult - #1, when options 2, 3, and 4 have absolutely no negative impact on you, but are also significantly easier (ie less expensive).

Long term problems with short term solutions are demonstrably challenging. But if you take the simple approach, it does make YOUR life better. 

[Mr. Silly]

17 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

I used the Google searched with "why are farmers protesting in the eu 2024"

This article from 2-20-24 helps to explain. 

https://www.voanews.com/a/here-s-why-farmers-are-protesting-in-europe/7494997.html

Farmers are protesting across the European Union, saying they are facing rising costs and taxes, red tape, excessive environmental rules and competition from cheap food imports.

Demonstrations have been taking place for weeks in countries that include France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland, Spain, Italy and Greece.

My read between the lines...  The EU is paying hommage to the green goddess.  That's driving up the costs to the EU farmers. For example banning nitrogen fertilizers reduces crop output.  Less output for more cost. Farmers use lots of fuel to farm.

The market place solves the problem by importing foods from countries that don't have most of the self imposed rules,  so their crops are cheaper. 

Kind of ironic you choke off the local farmers to save the planet.  But the result is you now use more fuel to import cheaper foods from other places, that don't have bans on nitrogen or tax carbon, etc... and the food all costs more.

Read the article you linked to first says farmers are angry about imports from Ukraine.  They're complaining about free trade and the need for subsidies.    A lot of whining about the cost of fuel.  Diesel along with other fuels are global commodities controled by the invisible hand of the free market.  Again, a lot of complaining about how capitalism works.

 

FRANCE

• EU red tape (also mentioned by Poland, Czech Republic twice, Spain, Portugal, Romainia)

No detail.  I guess they just don't wanna.

• Diesel prices (also mentoned by Romainia, and Greece)

Fuel is a global commodity and price controls don't work.

• Need more support to shore up incomes (also Portugal and Belgium)

More socialism.

• Access to irrigation

Here's a thought, don't try to grow food where there is no water 

• Criticism over animal welfare and use of pesticides

So they want to torture animals and poison people.  Maybe it is just me but I am against that.

Imports were mentioned by Poland, Czech Republic, Spain, Romania and Belguim. 

Greece is really the only country with a reasonable need for more government support since they're recovering from floods last year.  Everyone else are just whiners.

 

 

 

[Wilbur ★]

2 hours ago, Mr. Silly said:

Read the article you linked to first says farmers are angry about imports from Ukraine.  They're complaining about free trade and the need for subsidies.    A lot of whining about the cost of fuel.  Diesel along with other fuels are global commodities controled by the invisible hand of the free market.  Again, a lot of complaining about how capitalism works.

FRANCE

• EU red tape (also mentioned by Poland, Czech Republic twice, Spain, Portugal, Romainia)

No detail.  I guess they just don't wanna.

• Diesel prices (also mentoned by Romainia, and Greece)

Fuel is a global commodity and price controls don't work.

• Need more support to shore up incomes (also Portugal and Belgium)

More socialism.

• Access to irrigation

Here's a thought, don't try to grow food where there is no water 

• Criticism over animal welfare and use of pesticides

So they want to torture animals and poison people.  Maybe it is just me but I am against that.

Imports were mentioned by Poland, Czech Republic, Spain, Romania and Belguim. 

Greece is really the only country with a reasonable need for more government support since they're recovering from floods last year.  Everyone else are just whiners.

Yet expense to farmers is up 86% in some countries.  Many farmers are walking away as their farms are no longer viable.  Whiners!

[MoseySusan]

1 minute ago, Wilbur said:

Yet expense to farmers is up 86% in some countries.  Many farmers are walking away as their farms are no longer viable.  Whiners!

My SiL is jealous of her Iowa friends who are selling their farmland for millions and retiring in their 60’s. She thought leaving Iowa would set her up for the good life. You just never know. 

[Mr. Silly]

2 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Yet expense to farmers is up 86% in some countries.  Many farmers are walking away as their farms are no longer viable.  Whiners!

That should reduce competion and supply which will increase the price the remaining  farmers can charge, increase profits.  It sounds like a self correcting problem.  

[Bikeguy]

2 hours ago, Mr. Silly said:

That should reduce competion and supply which will increase the price the remaining  farmers can charge, increase profits.  It sounds like a self correcting problem.  

The remaining farmers will have even more competition from imported food, so people won't buy the local farm products.

[Wilbur ★]

2 hours ago, Mr. Silly said:

That should reduce competion and supply which will increase the price the remaining  farmers can charge, increase profits.  It sounds like a self correcting problem.  

At what cost?  Lost homes, bankruptcies, homelessness?  It can be a very long wait for markets to correct, if in fact, they do and I disagree with your assertion, they will.  Canada has plenty of lng for the country as well but it is being shuttered by the green agenda and lng is being imported from Russia.  Another market correction?  Do you know that Canada doesn’t even track the effects of taxes on the environment?  So far, there has been no net benefit other than added funds for more socialist programs by the green energy fiasco. More and more, it is proven to be a tax grab based on lies. This is just another transference of wealth and I am sure that is ok by a number of the participants in the discussion. 

[Mr. Silly]

10 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

At what cost?  Lost homes, bankruptcies, homelessness?  It can be a very long wait for markets to correct, if in fact, they do and I disagree with your assertion, they will.  Canada has plenty of lng for the country as well but it is being shuttered by the green agenda and lng is being imported from Russia.  Another market correction?  Do you know that Canada doesn’t even track the effects of taxes on the environment?  So far, there has been no net benefit other than added funds for more socialist programs by the green energy fiasco. More and more, it is proven to be a tax grab based on lies. This is just another transference of wealth and I am sure that is ok by a number of the participants in the discussion. 

I used to feel that way.  I lived in the Detroit area.  2008 came along and I was told by numerous people on the internet that i should move somewhere else, the US auto companies should learn to compete, make better products, our area should diversify, let the auto companies go under.  They convinced me that they were right.  Those farmers should grow something more profitable, move and get a job, go back to school and learn to compete in the global market.

[12string]

If we think the green energy fiasco is expensive, just wait til we see what the fiasco will cost if we don't try to make green energy less of a fiasco.

Climate change is about to make everything REALLY expensive.  If you can still get it.