Combat Roles For Women (Maybe P&R...)

[ChrisL]

The two postings of the SWA pilot made me think of this, what are your thoughts on women serving in combat units?  The Marines have their first ever female Infantry officer and I believe women can serve as pilots in combat roles now.

I was an MP 30 years ago which was already integrated as it wasnt classified as "combat arms" however their role as route security, urban warfare and POW processing put us out with combat units.  Female Army MP's have been fighting along side the infantry in Iraq & Afghanistan for decades but women can't serve in the Army infantry... 

I think it's a stupid requirement.  There should be one physical standard not gender specific and if you can meet the requirements you can serve. 

The problem with the current set up is the women soldiers had lower physical fitness requirements than men. But the job is the same.  So a  5' 100 lbs female MP has to deploy with the same combat load as everyone else. Her load weighs as muchnas her.  I've personally had to divvy equipment and reassign weapon systems as certain female MP's just couldn't carry the load forcing squadmates to carry more.  Some females could handle the load, maybe about 1/2 from my experience.

One standard open to anyone, that's my thought on it.

[Dirtyhip]

3 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

The two postings of the SWA pilot made me think of this, what are your thoughts on women serving in combat units?  The Marines have their first ever female Infantry officer and I believe women can serve as pilots in combat roles now.

I was an MP 30 years ago which was already integrated as it wasnt classified as "combat arms" however their role as route security, urban warfare and POW processing put us out with combat units.  Female Army MP's have been fighting along side the infantry in Iraq & Afghanistan for decades but women can't serve in the Army infantry... 

I think it's a stupid requirement.  There should be one physical standard not gender specific and if you can meet the requirements you can serve. 

The problem with the current set up is the women soldiers had lower physical fitness requirements than men. But the job is the same.  So a  5' 100 lbs female MP has to deploy with the same combat load as everyone else. Her load weighs as muchnas her.  I've personally had to divvy equipment and reassign weapon systems as certain female MP's just couldn't carry the load forcing squadmates to carry more.  Some females could handle the load, maybe about 1/2 from my experience.

One standard open to anyone, that's my thought on it.

It is a physical job.  The military person, male or female, should be able to carry the load that is required and to do the physical labor as well (digging trenches, walking/running long distances, etc.).  If they can't, then no combat for them.  I know guys that are quite frail and they would be discharged as well.

Guns and ammo are freaking heavy.  I could not have done that job, even at my best.  I am too tiny and have limited arm and body strength.  If the combat were a bike race, maybe.    

[ChrisL]

6 minutes ago, Dirtyhip said:

It is a physical job.  The military person, male or female, should be able to carry the load that is required and to do the physical labor as well (digging trenches, walking/running long distances, etc.).  If they can't, then no combat for them.  I know guys that are quite frail and they would be discharged as well.

Guns and ammo are freaking heavy.  I could not have done that job, even at my best.  I am too tiny and have limited arm and body strength.  If the combat were a bike race, maybe.    

I liked how they did it with the PD.  There was one physical fitness test.  Pass the test and you can take the written test. Fail the physical fitness test test and you go home.

Yeah your personal equipment you carry on your body is about 30 lbs.  That's not including weapons, ammo and your pack which depending on the mission can be 50-100 lbs.  The old M60 A1 machine guns weigh 23 lbs.  I was a gunner early on, humping that F'r for weeks on end sucks.

When we would come in from the field, turn in our weapons and change into civvies it felt as though you would float away.

[jsharr ★]

I was just listening to a study about how testosterone is the the reason young males fight, break laws, etc.  over 90% of crime is due to young males.  Warriors are young males with high testosterone levels.

In mass shootings, it is males who throw themselves in front of females to use their body as a shield.  The author said there is not one instance of a female doing this, other than mother's protecting their children.  I have not read the study, just listened to a synopsis of the book about how we are trying to get the warrior mentality out of our young males.

My point is, that males are made to be warriors.  It is part of how they are made.

 

[Dirtyhip]

9 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I liked how they did it with the PD.  There was one physical fitness test.  Pass the test and you can take the written test. Fail the physical fitness test test and you go home.

Yeah your personal equipment you carry on your body is about 30 lbs.  That's not including weapons, ammo and your pack which depending on the mission can be 50-100 lbs.  The old M60 A1 machine guns weigh 23 lbs.  I was a gunner early on, humping that F'r for weeks on end sucks.

When we would come in from the field, turn in our weapons and change into civvies it felt as though you would float away.

I'm out.  That is more than half my body weight.  I weigh about 125 #s.  Physically, there is no way I could carry my load without risk of injury.  Injury leads to excessive cost in disability payments.  We don't need that kind of drain on our military.

[ChrisL]

18 minutes ago, Dirtyhip said:

I'm out.  That is more than half my body weight.  I weigh about 125 #s.  Physically, there is no way I could carry my load without risk of injury.  Injury leads to excessive cost in disability payments.  We don't need that kind of drain on our military.

I've seen women with a full load "turtle" due to the load. 

 

28 minutes ago, jsharr said:

I was just listening to a study about how testosterone is the the reason young males fight, break laws, etc.  over 90% of crime is due to young males.  Warriors are young males with high testosterone levels.

In mass shootings, it is males who throw themselves in front of females to use their body as a shield.  The author said there is not one instance of a female doing this, other than mother's protecting their children.  I have not read the study, just listened to a synopsis of the book about how we are trying to get the warrior mentality out of our young males.

My point is, that males are made to be warriors.  It is part of how they are made.

 

Agree to a point but women have been warriors for centuries, just not in the US Military.  The Russians for one deployed women soldiers in the defense of Stalingrad & Leningrad.  The Chinese have had many warrior women.  Women cops have acted with valor in shooting situations.  

I don't buy the women can't be warriors argument. 

[Dirtyhip]

29 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I've seen women with a full load "turtle" due to the load. 

Whatever the hell that means. 

To quote PP here ... 

[Dirtyhip]

30 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Agree to a point but women have been warriors for centuries, just not in the US Military.  The Russians for one deployed women soldiers in the defense of Stalingrad & Leningrad.  The Chinese have had many warrior women.  Women cops have acted with valor in shooting situations.  

I don't buy the women can't be warriors argument. 

Amazons.  

 

[maddmaxx ★]

Women fit most navy jobs very well. The only problem is having enough space to provide separate spaces for personal time, washing, sleeping.  Shore bases, large ships all work well.  Submarines have been a problem in the past because of the limited space.  I'm not sure what they are doing on the nuke boats now.  Pilots, absolutely, in fact some physiology studies indicate that they may in fact be better at handling G forces than men.  Infantry, perhaps there is a physical limitation there.  But then as a technician, there were times that others had to carry part of my load as well as there own.  I sure wasn't prepared for that.

 

 

[Tizeye]

For what it is worth during a training exercise held at a nearby, inactive/storage base, MP's stopped our transport bus at the gate and required the that we jog in with field load. They were taking great joy that we were 'soft' medical personnel. Two female officers flat out smoked them as the MP without any load couldn't keep up and barely broke a sweat in the two mile jog. Little did they know that the females were marathoners...and we didn't tell them. I kept up with the MP's leasing us to the site and it was a joy just watching their reaction. During live fire exercise we are crawling through trenches with stretchers, and later through an obstacle course, trough windows, etc. We weren't dumb, we picked the lightest nurse as the patient strapped to stretcher. The next year they used sandbags.  

One year the weather was so bad that the projector bulb went 'plink' in the cold so we were not subjected to training classes...but had tent stake detail, pounding them back in throughout the night as the rain soaked ground softened and the wind was gale force. Upon leaving, while there was snow in the AM, noticed the concrete block softball dugout was totally demolished.  Arriving back at the main base, tree limbs were down all over the place and we learned they closed the base yesterday, sending all personnel home and was still closed. We camped out in that crap...but we were no longer considered 'soft' as the news spread to operational units.

[ChrisL]

1 hour ago, Dirtyhip said:

Whatever the hell that means. 

To quote PP here ... 

Full combat load.... The weight just topples them right onto their back and their arms & legs flail like a flipped turtle.  

[ChrisL]

1 hour ago, Dirtyhip said:

Amazons.  

 

Not always.  As a cop a female patrol officer requested a code 2 (urgent) follow.  I was the closest patrol so responded.  She was talking to two burly biker dudes and they were walking towards her as she was backing up.  They saw me coming so said now or never so one dude grabbed her.  She judo flipped the dude, stomped him in the head and then drew down on the second shit head who promptly went unconscious when I arrived.

The first shit head had her by 5" and 100 lbs easy and she took him out without the use of any aids.

[Dottleshead ★]

Lara Croft was bad ass.

 

 

[JerrySTL ★]

If they can meet the physical and mental requirements, no problem. Heck I once trained a lot of female Airmen on how to change 250 lb aircraft wheel and tire assemblies. 

What I do have a problem with is that 18 YO men still have to register for the draft while 18 YO women do NOT. Of course it's very unlikely that we will ever have a draft again, but if women want equal rights, equal pay, etc., then responsibilities should be equal also.

[ChrisL]

48 minutes ago, JerrySTL said:

If they can meet the physical and mental requirements, no problem. Heck I once trained a lot of female Airmen on how to change 250 lb aircraft wheel and tire assemblies. 

What I do have a problem with is that 18 YO men still have to register for the draft while 18 YO women do NOT. Of course it's very unlikely that we will ever have a draft again, but if women want equal rights, equal pay, etc., then responsibilities should be equal also.

Agree 100%

[Parr8hed]

Agree on the requirements.  Should be a single set of requirements for both sexes. If you can do the physical requirements, cool.  If not, here is a job in supply that might work better for you.  

This is where it gets tricky for me.  Suppose that you are in an SF or infantry unit and you and a few fellow soldiers get taken into enemy custody for whatever reason.  This happens.  Suppose one of them were a female.  This is where I have a real issue, and maybe it is all on me and my feelings.  But the bad guys can do a lot of horrible things to women to get the good guys to give up information that could kill a lot more good guys.  I don't have to go into too many details here do I?

[pedalphile]

15 hours ago, ChrisL said:

I've seen women with a full load "turtle" due to the load. 

 

Agree to a point but women have been warriors for centuries, just not in the US Military.  The Russians for one deployed women soldiers in the defense of Stalingrad & Leningrad.  The Chinese have had many warrior women.  Women cops have acted with valor in shooting situations.  

I don't buy the women can't be warriors argument. 

The Amazonians too, they were an all woman squad

[Razors Edge ★]

46 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

Agree on the requirements.  Should be a single set of requirements for both sexes. If you can do the physical requirements, cool.  If not, here is a job in supply that might work better for you.  

I'd just ask 1) what are the requirements, 2) why are they the requirements, 3) are one set of requirements sensible, and 4) would a different set of requirements fit the bill as well?

The standard "if the only tool you have is a hammer, you see everything as a nail" comes to mind.

Tom

[ChrisL]

1 hour ago, Parr8hed said:

Agree on the requirements.  Should be a single set of requirements for both sexes. If you can do the physical requirements, cool.  If not, here is a job in supply that might work better for you.  

This is where it gets tricky for me.  Suppose that you are in an SF or infantry unit and you and a few fellow soldiers get taken into enemy custody for whatever reason.  This happens.  Suppose one of them were a female.  This is where I have a real issue, and maybe it is all on me and my feelings.  But the bad guys can do a lot of horrible things to women to get the good guys to give up information that could kill a lot more good guys.  I don't have to go into too many details here do I?

Yeah but they can do and have done a lot of horrible things to the guys in order to get info from other guys.  I think any soldier, Marine, Airman etc who volunteers for the job understands and accepts the risks.

[ChrisL]

19 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

I'd just ask 1) what are the requirements, 2) why are they the requirements, 3) are one set of requirements sensible, and 4) would a different set of requirements fit the bill as well?

The standard "if the only tool you have is a hammer, you see everything as a nail" comes to mind.

Tom

Spoken like an HR attorney...

Rewuirrments:

1) To kill the enemy

2) So you don't get killed

3) Yes and they are tough

4) No, refer to 1) & 2).

[Kzoo]

10 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Spoken like an HR attorney...

Rewuirrments:

1) To kill the enemy

2) So you don't get killed

3) Yes and they are tough

4) No, refer to 1) & 2).

So many people have a hard time understanding that the military are tasked and trained to kill people and break stuff so others don't have it happen to them.

[Parr8hed]

19 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Yeah but they can do and have done a lot of horrible things to the guys in order to get info from other guys.  I think any soldier, Marine, Airman etc who volunteers for the job understands and accepts the risks.

True.  

[onbike1939]

It's not the actual doing of it...and by this I mean carrying heavy loads over long distances in the shortest possible time.

It's how the injuries you carry come back when you are old to haunt you and make your life a wee bit difficult....speaking as an ex Para with buggered knees and little hearing.

[maddmaxx ★]

1 hour ago, onbike1939 said:

It's not the actual doing of it...and by this I mean carrying heavy loads over long distances in the shortest possible time.

It's how the injuries you carry come back when you are old to haunt you and make your life a wee bit difficult....speaking as an ex Para with buggered knees and little hearing.

Even the uniforms are changing......knee pads for the modern infantry etc.

[ChrisL]

5 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Even the uniforms are changing......knee pads for the modern infantry etc.

Yeah they have been around for a while. Anything that aids comfort is a good thing.  Knees and elbows get beat up pretty good. The New uni's are pretty slick too.

[donkpow]

Women should not be put in harm's way for breeding purposes. One male can inseminate a lot of females in 9 months.

[onbike1939]

Yes, I believe they have sound suppressors for the ears when firing weapons. We had none of this in the early sixties when I was a Bren gunner and was laying with my ear a few inches away from the barrel. All of our training was done with live ammo and I would be deaf for days after. The idea would have been laughed at and you would have been called a big sissy.

[Kzoo]

11 minutes ago, onbike1939 said:

Yes, I believe they have sound suppressors for the ears when firing weapons. We had none of this in the early sixties when I was a Bren gunner and was laying with my ear a few inches away from the barrel. All of our training was done with live ammo and I would be deaf for days after. The idea would have been laughed at and you would have been called a big sissy.

Ehhh?

[onbike1939]

7 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Ehhh?

What?....what?

Did I confuse you? Press your keys in some kind of order asking for elucidation and I'll oblige.

[ChrisL]

27 minutes ago, onbike1939 said:

Yes, I believe they have sound suppressors for the ears when firing weapons. We had none of this in the early sixties when I was a Bren gunner and was laying with my ear a few inches away from the barrel. All of our training was done with live ammo and I would be deaf for days after. The idea would have been laughed at and you would have been called a big sissy.

We were all issued hearing protection we wore when training which helped.  I had experienced a couple of shootings and discharges at close range with no hearing protection  (one indoors) and man that does bkiw the hearing out.

One of my favorite photos is a picture of a platoon sized element during the Indonesian revolution post WW II and my Dad manning the Bren.  (He was in the Dutch Army.) 

[Kzoo]

I have hearing loss in one ear from a incident when I was 17yo.  I was accidentally in front of and way too close to the muzzle of a .308 varmint rifle when it was discharged.  The muzzle blast nearly put me on the ground. 

[onbike1939]

8 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

We were all issued hearing protection we wore when training which helped.  I had experienced a couple of shootings and discharges at close range with no hearing protection  (one indoors) and man that does bkiw the hearing out.

One of my favorite photos is a picture of a platoon sized element during the Indonesian revolution post WW II and my Dad manning the Bren.  (He was in the Dutch Army.) 

M hearing was damaged at that time so now I have to wear two hearing aids.I did try to gain some compensation or even a small pension but our patriotic MP's retrospectively changed the rules and this was denied. 

I mean....it's hardly fair after all the brown people I traveled the world to repress.

[ChrisL]

22 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

I have hearing loss in one ear from a incident when I was 17yo.  I was accidentally in front of and way too close to the muzzle of a .308 varmint rifle when it was discharged.  The muzzle blast nearly put me on the ground. 

I hated going to the M60 ranges as the percussion of putting down 1,000's of rounds would just give me a splitting headache, even with hearing protection.  The M60 uses a similar round to the 308.

We worked in 2 man teams so you had to do each evolution 2x, as a gunner and then as an assistant gunner. Just too much boom...

[Further]

I have been lead to believe that the next generation of warriors will operate drones from a sophisticated game controller. 

I doubt gender will effect gaming ability.

[Further]

An  anecdote about hearing protection.

I used to shoot trap quite a bit, 4 to 8 rounds a week. I didn't wear hearing protection and my average was 22 point something, stuck in earplugs and my average jumped to close to 24.

No other change, just earplugs.

[maddmaxx ★]

1 hour ago, Further said:

An  anecdote about hearing protection.

I used to shoot trap quite a bit, 4 to 8 rounds a week. I didn't wear hearing protection and my average was 22 point something, stuck in earplugs and my average jumped to close to 24.

No other change, just earplugs.

The breeze through the skull was probably causing your eyes to flutter.

[Randomguy]

Chicks can be hard-asses, let 'em fight if they want to.

 

[Randomguy]

12 hours ago, donkpow said:

One male can inseminate a lot of females in 9 months.

I volunteer.  I make good babies, you see.

[donkpow]