Popular Post Longjohn ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Popular Post Share #1 Posted October 12, 2018 You guys know your shift. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerrySTL ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #2 Posted October 12, 2018 I can shift left- and right-handed. Thankfully the pedals stay in the same order. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentonMakes Posted October 12, 2018 Share #3 Posted October 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, JerrySTL said: I can shift left- and right-handed. Thankfully the pedals stay in the same order. I just saw someone in a (British) TV show shift left-handed, and it occurred to me I think it would take me a long time to learn how to do that well. I still love shifting, most of the time. My daughter is in driver ed now and she said she wants to learn to drive my car. However, this is probably because she wants me to buy a new car and give this one to her. I guess once she starts driving, a 6- or 7-year old Accord would make a good first car.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerrySTL ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #4 Posted October 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, TrentonMakes said: I just saw someone in a (British) TV show shift left-handed, and it occurred to me I think it would take me a long time to learn how to do that well. It doesn't take all that long at all. Even my wife picked it up quickly and she had a hard time learning to shift a manual in the first place. I think that shifting bicycle gears may help also as you use both hands to shift on most bicycles. The only thing that threw me a little is that the gas pedal (petrol pedal?) is near the wheel-well hump and often the pedals are slightly more to the left than on a left-hand drive car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #5 Posted October 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, JerrySTL said: It doesn't take all that long at all. Even my wife picked it up quickly and she had a hard time learning to shift a manual in the first place. I think that shifting bicycle gears may help also as you use both hands to shift on most bicycles. The only thing that threw me a little is that the gas pedal (petrol pedal?) is near the wheel-well hump and often the pedals are slightly more to the left than on a left-hand drive car. That would remove your ability to brace your foot on that hump in hard cornering. Bummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #6 Posted October 12, 2018 This deserves a good score Kazoo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BuffJim Posted October 12, 2018 Popular Post Share #7 Posted October 12, 2018 Millennial Anti-theft device 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisL Posted October 12, 2018 Share #8 Posted October 12, 2018 I drove a manual for nearly 20 years but it's been nearly that long since I've driven one. I'm sure it would come back fairly quickly but I'm sure I'd stall it at least once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longjohn ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share #9 Posted October 12, 2018 My son said the shifting took more concentration on his rental car than the driving on the wrong side of the road. Left turns were a challenge as well. I have never tried it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedalphile Posted October 12, 2018 Share #10 Posted October 12, 2018 I’ve allus owned manuals, only drove an automatic one time, it was boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longjohn ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share #11 Posted October 12, 2018 1 minute ago, pedalphile said: I’ve allus owned manuals, only drove an automatic one time, it was boring. My sister in law has an autobike. What a piece of crap, just when you get your speed up to almost the correct gear it up shifts again. I took her to the LBS and helped her pick out a proper bike. She wouldn’t let me take her autobike to the curb on trash day. Maybe somebody that likes to mash gears will want it. The other thing about it is it weighs about double what her new bike weighed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #12 Posted October 12, 2018 7 minutes ago, pedalphile said: I’ve allus owned manuals, only drove an automatic one time, it was boring. I started out driving automatics including all the race cars. We did shift them manually though but there was no clutch involved. The real fun came when I bought my Corvette and the salesman had to give me a crash course in clutch work during the test drive. By the time I had purchased it and put a new engine into it I could drive manuals. Then for years that's all I drove. Today I'm back in automatics, but the modern 7 speed kind that are really wonderful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rattlecan ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Popular Post Share #13 Posted October 12, 2018 Back when I started driving commercially, the first diesel I drove had two handles poking up out of the floor. When I asked the boss if somebody was going to show me how to drive it, his response was "ah, you'll figure it out" I did, but I think I rounded off a few edges doing it. Came to realize later that the boss had no idea how to drive it either. 4 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted October 12, 2018 Share #14 Posted October 12, 2018 @maddmaxx this really isn't that good. Fair use of the thread title. No use of the OP text and no attempt to support it with a pic like the OP Lots of related posts in the thread which signifies that a lot of peeps don't see it as a parody. I don't know??? I'm not saying it's a bad parody. We all know that since parodybot's batteries died the overall parody quality here has dropped. But Da Meter doesn't grade on a curve. And further more @maddmaxx are you just jonesing for a good score because you are the OPer? OK..... the Paridy Meter says............... 7.36 I think this is LJ's 2 parody in the last 2 days and second parody in the last 2 years. He's working on it... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #15 Posted October 12, 2018 55 minutes ago, JerrySTL said: It doesn't take all that long at all. Even my wife picked it up quickly and she had a hard time learning to shift a manual in the first place. I think that shifting bicycle gears may help also as you use both hands to shift on most bicycles. The only thing that threw me a little is that the gas pedal (petrol pedal?) is near the wheel-well hump and often the pedals are slightly more to the left than on a left-hand drive car. We picked our rental car up in downtown London. I had to adjust to left handed shifting and driving on the wrong side of the road - in city traffic! Luckily, my wife was very good at reminding me which side to be in coming out of corners & turns. The shifting was no issue, but definitely the turns and roundabouts were. And the narrow roads. A week later, we returned the car with no scratches or dents. Tom 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #16 Posted October 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Kzoo said: @maddmaxx this really isn't that good. Fair use of the thread title. No use of the OP text and no attempt to support it with a pic like the OP Lots of related posts in the thread which signifies that a lot of peeps don't see it as a parody. I don't know??? I'm not saying it's a bad parody. We all know that since parodybot's batteries died the overall parody quality here has dropped. But Da Meter doesn't grade on a curve. And further more @maddmaxx are you just jonesing for a good score because you are the OPer? OK..... the Paridy Meter says............... 7.36 I think this is LJ's 2 parody in the last 2 days and second parody in the last 2 years. He's working on it... IMO a great parody is so good that most posters don't realize that it is one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #17 Posted October 12, 2018 You are really clutching at straws with this one. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickinMD ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #18 Posted October 12, 2018 I had one manual-shift car. It was fun shifting and perfecting things like the technique of easing off the clutch with your left foot, releasing the brake with your right foot and immediately easing on the accelerator with it when stopped and facing uphill - until it got old. Four years later I decided to go back to automatic transmissions and happily have stayed there. Then my sister's college friend's father ran a Ford dealership and gave her a tremendous deal even before she graduated from U of Maryland Nursing School (she already had a job lined-up at Johns Hopkins Hospital) on a manual-shift Mustang. I had to drive it home from the dealership because she didn't know how but wanted to learn, so I taught her. She loved that car but also switched back to automatic transmissions after that. But we both treasure the manual experience - especially if we ever need to use those skills with someone else's car at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted October 12, 2018 Share #19 Posted October 12, 2018 38 minutes ago, jsharr said: You are really clutching at straws with this one. groan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #20 Posted October 12, 2018 Watch this. starts slow but you will enjoy...............unless you've never tried to shift a manual quickly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #21 Posted October 12, 2018 23 minutes ago, MickinMD said: I had one manual-shift car. It was fun shifting and perfecting things like the technique of easing off the clutch with your left foot, releasing the brake with your right foot and immediately easing on the accelerator with it when stopped and facing uphill - until it got old. Four years later I decided to go back to automatic transmissions and happily have stayed there. Then my sister's college friend's father ran a Ford dealership and gave her a tremendous deal even before she graduated from U of Maryland Nursing School (she already had a job lined-up at Johns Hopkins Hospital) on a manual-shift Mustang. I had to drive it home from the dealership because she didn't know how but wanted to learn, so I taught her. She loved that car but also switched back to automatic transmissions after that. But we both treasure the manual experience - especially if we ever need to use those skills with someone else's car at some point. A manual transmission is a bazillion times funner to drive than an automatic UNTIL you introduce TRAFFIC. We keep one car an auto and one car a manual, and switching between them is remarkable. The manual you are driving. The auto is just cruising around. Neither is really "better", but having driven many of our manuals (my Accord is my first automatic) in rural, suburban, and urban traffic, I gotta say I would hate not having the automatic in DC traffic. Luckily, I don't use a car to commute anymore, so my Accord sits relaxed in the driveway until the weekends. As a side note, it is becoming a BEOTCH to find a manual transmission car anymore. My wife has said she might be interested in a new car soon - only criteria are small, manual trans, fun to drive, fuel efficient, ad two door. That is pretty limiting, so I immediately thought something like a BMW 230. Checking it out online, it ticks most boxes except the all-wheel drive version automatic only. WTF? Sure, could go with the RWD version, but that is sort of not the point since you KNOW they sell the awd + manual in Europe already. Oh, and in the whole US, I found like five total 230's with the manual trans. Tom 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #22 Posted October 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Razors Edge said: A manual transmission is a bazillion times funner to drive than an automatic UNTIL you introduce TRAFFIC. We keep one car an auto and one car a manual, and switching between them is remarkable. The manual you are driving. The auto is just cruising around. Neither is really "better", but having driven many of our manuals (my Accord is my first automatic) in rural, suburban, and urban traffic, I gotta say I would hate not having the automatic in DC traffic. Luckily, I don't use a car to commute anymore, so my Accord sits relaxed in the driveway until the weekends. As a side note, it is becoming a BEOTCH to find a manual transmission car anymore. My wife has said she might be interested in a new car soon - only criteria are small, manual trans, fun to drive, fuel efficient, ad two door. That is pretty limiting, so I immediately thought something like a BMW 230. Checking it out online, it ticks most boxes except the all-wheel drive version automatic only. WTF? Sure, could go with the RWD version, but that is sort of not the point since you KNOW they sell the awd + manual in Europe already. Oh, and in the whole US, I found like five total 230's with the manual trans. Tom They are automatics but probably with a driver override like paddle shifters. Effectively they are clutchless (from the drivers perspective) manual transmissions if you want them to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kzoo Posted October 12, 2018 Share #23 Posted October 12, 2018 WoKzoo had a manual transmission in her car when we met as did I. We both loved them. We both had manual trans cars up until the first car we bought that we figured our oldest would be driving. Then we went all autos. After the kids we on their own I had a Saab with with manual for a few years and my only complaint was traffic (as the n00b said). We would both enjoy manuals again but haven't really considered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentonMakes Posted October 12, 2018 Share #24 Posted October 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, Razors Edge said: As a side note, it is becoming a BEOTCH to find a manual transmission car anymore. Tom Even more so if you try to limit to American cars. Old-school-type Jeeps, low-end pickups (I think), and the little economy cars (i.e. Chevy Cruze), are about it, I think. Maybe once a week I encounter some bumper-to-bumper traffic so bad it sucks having the stick, but that's a very small percentage of the time. I never get tired of throwing it down into second and accelerating out of a turn. I have an aunt who once paid to have the automatic transmission in a car replaced with a manual. I've always heard this story but what I don't know is whether that automatic needed replacing anyway. .....one problem I've noticed with people who enjoy driving stick shifts, is that they also really enjoy talking about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #25 Posted October 12, 2018 1 minute ago, maddmaxx said: They are automatics but probably with a driver override like paddle shifters. Effectively they are clutchless (from the drivers perspective) manual transmissions if you want them to be. Yeah - and that is the way the world is going. I'd be interested to see how those stack up reliability-wise vs manuals & autos, because they seem more complex than a manual by a long shot. My buddy who I commuted with had a GTI with one of the earlier DSG transmissions, and that thing sucked big time AND was expensive to repair (covered by warranty, though). It probably is better now as it seems Porsche almost exclusively uses the PDK in the 911 turbo variants. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dottleshead ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #26 Posted October 12, 2018 Does anybody own one of those electrical shifters? I was thinking about getting an electrical bike with electrical shifters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #27 Posted October 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Razors Edge said: Yeah - and that is the way the world is going. I'd be interested to see how those stack up reliability-wise vs manuals & autos, because they seem more complex than a manual by a long shot. My buddy who I commuted with had a GTI with one of the earlier DSG transmissions, and that thing sucked big time AND was expensive to repair (covered by warranty, though). It probably is better now as it seems Porsche almost exclusively uses the PDK in the 911 turbo variants. Tom F1 puts a lot more power through them than anything you will have to worry about. This is a case where racing is serving as the development ground for street cars. Now it you as 3A he'll tell you that the clutch won't be necessary at all once everyone has an electric motor to drive. Again, F1 will probably pave the way as they currently use the fuel engine just to make power for the electric motor. (well, not quite that simple but nothing in F1 is simple anyway) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #28 Posted October 12, 2018 Just now, maddmaxx said: F1 puts a lot more power through them than anything you will have to worry about. But they can also rebuild or swap them between races? What kind of mileage do you think a F1 transmission sees between service? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #29 Posted October 12, 2018 1 hour ago, maddmaxx said: Watch this. starts slow but you will enjoy...............unless you've never tried to shift a manual quickly. Did he use the clutch again after he dumped it for the launch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #30 Posted October 12, 2018 Just now, Razors Edge said: But they can also rebuild or swap them between races? What kind of mileage do you think a F1 transmission sees between service? Tom They only get to use a few without penalty for the whole season so they have to have some reliability in them considering the abuse they take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #31 Posted October 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, jsharr said: Did he use the clutch again after he dumped it for the launch? No. With a Lenco transmission the clutch is only for when the car is stopped or for creeping up to the starting line. They are a very refined version of a crash box with special teeth and sliders that engage under full power so long as you move the lever quickly. Basically they are a stack of 2 speed planetary gear boxes. Add another box for each additional gear beyond the first 2 that you want. That's why so many shift levers. Each one is for a separate 2 speed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsharr ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #32 Posted October 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, maddmaxx said: No. With a Lenco transmission the clutch is only for when the car is stopped or for creeping up to the starting line. They are a very refined version of a crash box with special teeth and sliders that engage under full power so long as you move the lever quickly. Basically they are a stack of 2 speed planetary gear boxes. Add another box for each additional gear beyond the first 2 that you want. That's why so many shift levers. Each one is for a separate 2 speed. I UTFG after I asked and learned that. I had heard of Lenco's and seen them but never looked into their inner workings. I see they even make a version for high powered street cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #33 Posted October 12, 2018 6 hours ago, TrentonMakes said: .....one problem I've noticed with people who enjoy driving stick shifts, is that they also really enjoy talking about it. Just imagine the potential insufferableness of a vegan manual driver. :D 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted October 12, 2018 Share #34 Posted October 12, 2018 I will really miss the manual when the del Sol goes to the great junkyard in the sky. We also went to autos when the kids were near driving age. Even now with the kids oot of the hoose, my latest car is auto so others can drive it, even though an auto probably will be the thing that kills the car. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR46 Posted October 13, 2018 Share #35 Posted October 13, 2018 On the motorcycles I have driven jockey shift, hand shift, right foot shift and the standard left foot shift. I even have burned a few laps on my son's race bike with gp shift. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 13, 2018 Share #36 Posted October 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, BR46 said: On the motorcycles I have driven jockey shift, hand shift, right foot shift and the standard left foot shift. I even have burned a few laps on my son's race bike with gp shift. You certainly have your shift together. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlecan ★ Posted October 13, 2018 Share #37 Posted October 13, 2018 Just when you thought you could drive anything.... 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddmaxx ★ Posted October 13, 2018 Share #38 Posted October 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Rattlecan said: Just when you thought you could drive anything.... And for the 60's crowd he has presented a 1962 Freightliner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlecan ★ Posted October 13, 2018 Share #39 Posted October 13, 2018 18 minutes ago, maddmaxx said: And for the 60's crowd he has presented a 1962 Freightliner. Not quite. The 62 Freightliner pattern would look more like this. Your job is to figure out how to get 16 forward ratio combinations out of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longjohn ★ Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share #40 Posted October 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, Rattlecan said: Not quite. The 62 Freightliner pattern would look more like this. Your job is to figure out how to get 16 forward ratio combinations out of it. Those look too complicated, most all of our trucks had Detroit Diesels' with Roadranger ten speeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groupw Posted October 13, 2018 Share #41 Posted October 13, 2018 I didn’t get the opportunity to drive a manual when I was in the Caymans, but for the most part, I adapted well. I had a harder time remembering the turn signal and wiper switch were opposite! I wiped the windshield multiple times when I meant to signal a turn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dottleshead ★ Posted October 13, 2018 Share #42 Posted October 13, 2018 11 hours ago, jsharr said: I UTFG after I asked and learned that. I UTFG after I read your "UTFG". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Longjohn ★ Posted October 13, 2018 Author Popular Post Share #43 Posted October 13, 2018 We got new fork lifts at the shop one time and they had this little tiny lever on the left side of the steering wheel. It looked like your normal turn signal lever. I was hauling a large trim box up to the die shop and it was balanced on the forks of the fork lift. The mag man was behind me on his electric cart and was on my ass the whole way threw the shop. I kept waiting for him to go around me but he just stayed back there. As I approached the die shop I decided I should signal my turn so he didn’t try to pass me as I was making my left turn. I flicked the lever to make a left turn and the forklift went into reverse, the trim box slid off the forks and went ass over teacups down the aisle and the mag man slammed into the back of my highlift. I guess the new forklift didn’t have turn signals, that was an auxiliary shift lever. Who knew? Not me. I didn’t want to drive that thing in the first place.? 3 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedalphile Posted October 13, 2018 Share #44 Posted October 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, Longjohn said: We got new fork lifts at the shop one time and they had this little tiny lever on the left side of the steering wheel. It looked like your normal turn signal lever. I was hauling a large trim box up to the die shop and it was balanced on the forks of the fork lift. The mag man was behind me on his electric cart and was on my ass the whole way threw the shop. I kept waiting for him to go around me but he just stayed back there. As I approached the die shop I decided I should signal my turn so he didn’t try to pass me as I was making my left turn. I flicked the lever to make a left turn and the forklift went into reverse, the trim box slid off the forks and went ass over teacups down the aisle and the mag man slammed into the back of my highlift. I guess the new forklift didn’t have turn signals, that was an auxiliary shift lever. Who knew? Not me. I didn’t want to drive that thing in the first place.? In the roofing felt factory I worked one summer while a student the lads would all get their heads down laying on the floor of the mess room for a couple of hours mid shift, if we were up on target output, jammed together like sardines in a smelly can, which did not appeal to me whatsoever, so I’d make my own entertainments while they dossed. One night I thought I’d have a go on a forklift, and was caught out by the rear wheel steering on it, and didn’t miss the wall as I went for a turn out into the yard, oops. That thing had a Coventry Climax engine, same as in nearly all the F1 cars for the entire decade of the 60s. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longjohn ★ Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share #45 Posted October 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, pedalphile said: One night I thought I’d have a go on a forklift, and was caught out by the rear wheel steering on it, and didn’t miss the wall as I went for a turn out into the yard, oops. We had an old guy on forklift back when I was younger. He was driving down past the locker room at the end of his shift to park his lift. The new vending machine girl was walking the other direction and he had not seen her before. She was eye candy and he couldn’t take his eyes off her as he slammed straight on into one of the columns that was holding up the roof. The roof didn’t come down but for a moment we were not sure. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedalphile Posted October 13, 2018 Share #46 Posted October 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, Longjohn said: We had an old guy on forklift back when I was younger. He was driving down past the locker room at the end of his shift to park his lift. The new vending machine girl was walking the other direction and he had not seen her before. She was eye candy and he couldn’t take his eyes off her as he slammed straight on into one of the columns that was holding up the roof. The roof didn’t come down but for a moment we were not sure. A real man’s workplace like that should be devoid of eye candy Shirley, would never get it through H&S nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longjohn ★ Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share #47 Posted October 13, 2018 1 minute ago, pedalphile said: A real man’s workplace like that should be devoid of eye candy Shirley, would never get it through H&S nowadays. We actually were devoid of women except for the girls hired by the vending machine company to take care of the lunch room and fill the sandwich machines and coffee machines. They were not forge employees. Most of them dated forge shop guys and some of them married forge shop guys. When they were the only female in a shop with over a hundred guys they looked pretty good. When you see them out in public they blended it looking quite ordinary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedalphile Posted October 13, 2018 Share #48 Posted October 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Longjohn said: We actually were devoid of women except for the girls hired by the vending machine company to take care of the lunch room and fill the sandwich machines and coffee machines. They were not forge employees. Most of them dated forge shop guys and some of them married forge shop guys. When they were the only female in a shop with over a hundred guys they looked pretty good. When you see them out in public they blended it looking quite ordinary. It’s those forge goggles, they must work same as beer goggles. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphie ★ Posted October 13, 2018 Share #49 Posted October 13, 2018 12 hours ago, Rattlecan said: Just when you thought you could drive anything.... 4 to 5 is a real bitch! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Further Posted October 13, 2018 Share #50 Posted October 13, 2018 6 hours ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said: 4 to 5 is a real bitch! And 5 to 6 goes straight through 12 ? That looks like something off a machine tool rather than a vehicle So what's it from Rattlecan ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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