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Square Wheels

What the Health

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It's a movie on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/watch/80174177?trackId=13752289

Yes, it's all about the crazy conspiracies to poison us, yes, it's about being vegan, but I found it good.

Give it a watch, it's only an hour and a half, I promise it won't kill you to watch, it might even change your life.

WHAT THE HEALTH

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2 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

Your health isn't worth 90 minutes?

For 90 minutes of crazy vegan conspiracy crap, no.

I've spent untold hours over many years of my life trying to improve my diet and exercise routines.  I read many books on the subjects of diet and exercise, starting with my first diet/health book in 1975.  I'll take a pass on the vegan conspiracy theories.  To each his own, but IMO, immersing yourself in these cult-like groups and regimens is unlikely to be a path to healthy living.  After a lifetime of striving to be healthy, I really think that weight control, DNA and pure luck play the biggest roles in being healthy and achieving long life.  

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Do you think it's going to undo 71 years of debauchery?  That's like asking if surgery on my right elbow will make me great tennis player.

 

Oh and I too just turned off netflix because they raised their subscription rates.

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11 minutes ago, Road Runner said:

After a lifetime of striving to be healthy, I really think that weight control, DNA and pure luck play the biggest roles in being healthy and achieving long life.  

I agree...and as to weight loss..you do have to figure out what works for you...and work it!!

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I don't expect anyone to change their eating habits, but I must say, I read a lot on this site alone of people with type II diabetes, gout, arthritis, obesity... The list goes on, along with all of the meds we take.  Yes, some are needed, I don't need to get chewed out for being wrongly accused of suggesting we withhold meds from people who need it, but statins?  Seriously?  Maybe if your doc told you to stop eating fried chicken and potato chips and refused to give you statins until you changed your habits, we'd all (especially you) would be better off.  You'd probably just find another doc who would give it to you and feel you won that battle.

Would eating better hurt you?  Are you really that stubborn or brainwashed that you continue to insist that eating the crap that passes for food is a good way to live?  I honestly believed I needed meat and milk.  I'd never survive without the protein provided from those products.  Somehow I've survived without them.  Lots of vegans compete at high levels, including at the professional level.  I will never be at the level, but I ran about the same this year as I did last.  No noticeable degradation in my performance, in fact I feel a lot better once I hit 4+ miles running this year than I did last.  Is it from my diet, maybe not, but it clearly isn't holding me back.   There seems to be plenty of evidence that consuming animal products provides mostly harmful inflammatory responses which leads to many diseases.

So, big pharma, meat, poultry, dairy, pork and associated industries have a lot to lose if you stop consuming their products.  Are the people producing these movies out to get them?  They aren't selling me anything and aren't advocating for any industry at all.  They never say eat nothing but Mr. Green's Organic Kale and you'll live a magical life - Call 1-800-eat-kale now for your free 30 day supply.  They advertise exactly nothing.  They suggest a plant based diet as a possible alternative.  I'm curious, where the conspiracy is.  I must be missing something.

Not for you, OK.  Too radical?  I understand.  Could you consider changing your diet and see if it helps?  Maybe get off one of your meds, maybe your high blood pressure med?  Do you think meds come with no risk and no side effect?  You're delusional if you believe that.  I'm always sad when a friend or family member is so quick to adopt the medication life and laugh at me and the choices I make to be healthier.  At most family gatherings I'm looked at and openly ridiculed as the kook with the tinfoil hat that thinks these foods are out to get me and I'd die if I ate a piece of cheese.  Yes, I have a few more pounds to drops, but I'm the only one in my family that is not obese and not on meds.  I was on BP meds for decades, but started exercising, eating better and lost weight.  I've been med free for a while now, probably 6 or 8 years.  No meds, no sides effects from them.  But, you're all right, I'm the nut.  Pass the bacon please.

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OK, I watched it, and what strikes me is how doctors can be so all over the map, beating each other over the head.  But all in all, it is basically an updated Diet for a Small Planet which I read 30 years ago and mostly agreed with, that our largely animal based diet is making a mess of the planet and probably our health too.  I have always agreed with the advice to follow the money, and they do seem to make a good case for the cancer etc. organizations being part of an industry that doesn;t really want their gravy train to end.  A good example I have had personal experience with is the Better Business Bureau - so touted by people like Dear Abby and the like as a consumer protection agency, but in reality a shill for the businesses that have bought and paid for it.  I have read much before aboot what a whore our government is aboot supporting corporations that lobby them and had no trouble believing that!

Groupw, I would be interested in hearing what specific criticisms your health professional friends have of it. My doctor daughter advocates for moving your diet toward more plants, and she does very well at cooking great vegetarian or vegan meals, but even she often wants a big slab o meat as the centerpiece, which I don;t really agree with.  I really need to loose weight and I view eating more veggies and less meat and junk as the way to get there, but so far I have failed spectacularly!

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This is like discussing politics.  People have different experiences, come from different backgrounds and believe different things.  Going back and forth on the meat versus plant issue, especially with vegans, whose ideas and agendas are a bit political as well as dietary; i.e., "the big conspiracy", is almost always argumentative and pointless.  If you want to follow a particular diet or way of life, then just do it.  I just wish people would try to avoid all the evangelical preaching and the "my way is the right way" crap.

The individuals on this forum are all very intelligent people and understand what veganism and vegetarianism are, and as such, are all quite capable of making the dietary choices that they believe are right for them and for their families.  Personally, I have long been a follower of Dr Ornish's low fat diet regimen.  But that is my choice.  I've mentioned it here a few times, but I would never try to push it on others.          

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22 minutes ago, Road Runner said:

This is like discussing politics.  People have different experiences, come from different backgrounds and believe different things.  Going back and forth on the meat versus plant issue, especially with vegans, whose ideas and agendas are a bit political as well as dietary; i.e., "the big conspiracy", is almost always argumentative and pointless.  If you want to follow a particular diet or way of life, then just do it.  I just wish people would try to avoid all the evangelical preaching and the "my way is the right way" crap.

The individuals on this forum are all very intelligent people and understand what veganism and vegetarianism are, and as such, are all quite capable of making the dietary choices that they believe are right for them and for their families.  Personally, I have long been a follower of Dr Ornish's low fat diet regimen.  But that is my choice.  I've mentioned it here a few times, but I would never try to push it on others.          

Yeah, the topic is interestingly divisive when in my opinion it shouldn't be. However, people often take perceived criticism negatively which is why it's hard to have open discussions. I'm not a pure vegan since I'll have a piece of meat/poultry every so often. What I will say is that greatly reducing and eliminating some foods (especially the processed variety), have made a big difference in the way I feel and how my body works; anecdotal of course but if it can help someone feel better physically and mentally then I'm always happy to share my experience with those who ask. I'm not dogmatic about it though; everyone has to decide what's best for them and go from there which is how it worked for me.

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The best books I've read on diets were:

1. The Harvard Medical School Guide to Healthy Eating (c.2003 I think), which avoids fads, doesn't have a "cause" that follows a particularly named diet, and basically says you should stay away from too much fat, bad fats, and empty carbs, and stay away from fad diets (all-carbs, no-carbs, etc.) unless there's a medical reason. It discusses what things are good for health, bad for health and why.

2. Fit or Fat by Covert Bailey (written in the '90's) that talks about the importance of physical activity as well as diet.

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17 hours ago, groupw said:

I have 2 friends who are health professionals get very angry after watching it. A lot of untrue and misleading info according to them. 

This is neither here nor there, as there are many health professionals who are idiots.  That doesn't invalidate your point of being a lot of untrue and misleading information in the movie, though.

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16 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

I don't expect anyone to change their eating habits, but I must say, I read a lot on this site alone of people with type II diabetes, gout, arthritis, obesity... The list goes on, along with all of the meds we take.  Yes, some are needed, I don't need to get chewed out for being wrongly accused of suggesting we withhold meds from people who need it, but statins?  Seriously?  Maybe if your doc told you to stop eating fried chicken and potato chips and refused to give you statins until you changed your habits, we'd all (especially you) would be better off.  You'd probably just find another doc who would give it to you and feel you won that battle.

Would eating better hurt you?  Are you really that stubborn or brainwashed that you continue to insist that eating the crap that passes for food is a good way to live?  I honestly believed I needed meat and milk.  I'd never survive without the protein provided from those products.  Somehow I've survived without them.  Lots of vegans compete at high levels, including at the professional level.  I will never be at the level, but I ran about the same this year as I did last.  No noticeable degradation in my performance, in fact I feel a lot better once I hit 4+ miles running this year than I did last.  Is it from my diet, maybe not, but it clearly isn't holding me back.   There seems to be plenty of evidence that consuming animal products provides mostly harmful inflammatory responses which leads to many diseases.

So, big pharma, meat, poultry, dairy, pork and associated industries have a lot to lose if you stop consuming their products.  Are the people producing these movies out to get them?  They aren't selling me anything and aren't advocating for any industry at all.  They never say eat nothing but Mr. Green's Organic Kale and you'll live a magical life - Call 1-800-eat-kale now for your free 30 day supply.  They advertise exactly nothing.  They suggest a plant based diet as a possible alternative.  I'm curious, where the conspiracy is.  I must be missing something.

Not for you, OK.  Too radical?  I understand.  Could you consider changing your diet and see if it helps?  Maybe get off one of your meds, maybe your high blood pressure med?  Do you think meds come with no risk and no side effect?  You're delusional if you believe that.  I'm always sad when a friend or family member is so quick to adopt the medication life and laugh at me and the choices I make to be healthier.  At most family gatherings I'm looked at and openly ridiculed as the kook with the tinfoil hat that thinks these foods are out to get me and I'd die if I ate a piece of cheese.  Yes, I have a few more pounds to drops, but I'm the only one in my family that is not obese and not on meds.  I was on BP meds for decades, but started exercising, eating better and lost weight.  I've been med free for a while now, probably 6 or 8 years.  No meds, no sides effects from them.  But, you're all right, I'm the nut.  Pass the bacon please.

You are sounding kinda preachy here, which makes it way easier to be the kooky guy that is all red-eyed and ranting about the demon foods, etc. etc.  I think just let people ask you about if they feel like it, and just say that "it just kind of fits me", then switch the conversation to anal sex and boobs.  At that point, you are just the pervert who has weird ideas about food instead of the nutbag who wants to up-end the world's food supply like your average hippie.  People relate to boobs and backdooring chicks much more readily, especially old people like your parents.

I hung out with my vegan niece yesterday, btw.  We went to a cafe that has roughly half of their items vegan and half omnivore, and it was cool.  I had the hummus wrap, which was wonderful.  We talked about veganism a bit.

Turns out that lots of college kids are vegan, and there are vegan options all over the place on campus, in every dining hall and in restaurants off campus, too.  So just like bigotry is waiting for all the old bigots to die before the world is safe from Polish jokes. so too must the vegans replace the carnivores before your sinister plans can come to fruition.  You best get used to carnivores, though, because they aren't going away altogether in any scenario I can see, but the world is trending to more veggie-centrism.  You may think you are pumping the gas when you talk about this, but you are really flooding the engine.  Slow it down is my unsolicited advice, lest you sound frantic and end up in a lunatic warehouse somewhere.

 

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To SW's point, I wonder how much of a correlation (if any) exists between food dies, additives and added chemicals and the effect on kids.  Is the ADD/ADHD problem contributed to food source or are Doctors over prescribing the meds? Or both?

I don't think many people disagree a plant based diet is healthier than what most people eat but not many are willing to go full vegan even though they understand the benefit.

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11 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

If I told you the gas station on the corner had a harmful additive you'd be horrified and never put that fuel in your precious vehicle.

I would ignore your advice because I know you have no possible way of knowing whether my corner gas station has a harmful additive in their gas or not.

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13 minutes ago, Longjohn said:

How about artificial sweeteners? What are your views on them? ( trying to stir the pot a little more):whistle:

Never touch them, but since there is no concrete evidence saying they are unsafe, and the manufacturers say they are safe, I suggest putting it in everything you consume. 

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1 hour ago, Square Wheels said:

If I told you the gas station on the corner had a harmful additive you'd be horrified and never put that fuel in your precious vehicle.

 

One day I was at work and I was snacking on raw broccoli and cauliflower when Paul was trying to convince me that the family size bag of Doritos he was eating was a much better snack. I pointed to a bucket of used waste oil and ask would you put that oil in your car. His response was no it would ruin the engine. My response was why would you put that in your body. .....you can always buy a new car.

Wo46 and I try to practice clean eating as much as possible. I don't really care what other people do or eat I just do what makes me happy. 

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23 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

It's a movie on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/watch/80174177?trackId=13752289

Yes, it's all about the crazy conspiracies to poison us, yes, it's about being vegan, but I found it good.

Give it a watch, it's only an hour and a half, I promise it won't kill you to watch, it might even change your life.

WHAT THE HEALTH

I'm cautiously blown away! I've had some health problems pop up in the last few years, like moderately high blood pressure, and type 2 diabetes. I have a niece who swears by her and her family's vegan diet. I'm going to do some more research! I've struggled with losing weight, especially since I can't ride a bike anymore (although I do walk a fair amount, and am back on my treadmill almost daily). I've never been a big red meat eater, but I do eat fish and chicken. This mandates further research. Thank you!

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3 hours ago, Longjohn said:

How about artificial sweeteners? What are your views on them? ( trying to stir the pot a little more):whistle:

I limit them however diabetes will kill me faster than any potential threats due artificial sweeteners so when I have a soda or sweetened drink its with an artificial sweatener.

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2 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

Never touch them, but since there is no concrete evidence saying they are unsafe

Long ago I stopped eating or drinking anything that had artificial sweeteners in it.  On occasion I'll buy something, unsuspecting, and the off-taste in the product prompts me to check the ingredients.  If there is any form of artificial sweetener in it, I throw it away.

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9 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Long ago I stopped eating or drinking anything that had artificial sweeteners in it.  On occasion I'll buy something, unsuspecting, and the off-taste in the product prompts me to check the ingredients.  If there is any form of artificial sweetener in it, I throw it away.

I used to li3ve Heed from Hammer, but I started getting sick on long rides, then I noticed I was limiting what I drank, because I didn't like how I felt.  I suspect it was the stevia,  it's in almost everything they make.  I cannot stomach it.

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43 minutes ago, Voodoo Child said:

I'm cautiously blown away! 

Since most people are sarcastic here, I'm not sure if you're serious.  If you are, and eating better helps you even a tiny but, that would be wonderful.  I suspect you can get rid of the diabetes, which might save your life.

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1 hour ago, Square Wheels said:

Since most people are sarcastic here, I'm not sure if you're serious.  If you are, and eating better helps you even a tiny but, that would be wonderful.  I suspect you can get rid of the diabetes, which might save your life.

I'm very serious. I watched it, and then downloaded it off iTunes.

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3 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

Since most people are sarcastic here, I'm not sure if you're serious.  If you are, and eating better helps you even a tiny but, that would be wonderful.  I suspect you can get rid of the diabetes, which might save your life.

I'm with you boss.  I haven't even started the vegan diet yet and KZoo called me a jackass.

DK

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16 hours ago, Longjohn said:

How about artificial sweeteners? What are your views on them? ( trying to stir the pot a little more):whistle:

I love sweets but what I've worked out for myself is to enjoy sweets in the form of fruit instead of the processed varieties. As a person who really enjoys chocolate, that took some doing but I still have some every now and again but much smaller amounts and much less frequently. I'm faced large amounts of chocolate everyday since my team has a candy basket where people continually fill it. The battle is ultimately mental; you can retrain your palate if you're persistent and try to replicate what you enjoy from unhealthy foods (texture, taste) into healthy alternatives. That has been really helpful and helped me avoid sudden cravings and the desire to binge.

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13 hours ago, Longjohn said:

I drink coffee and tea black and unsweetened, I occasionally have a milkshake (several times a year) but that's the only sweetened drink I'll have. 

I use coconut creamer in my coffee which has almost no sugar and provides a nice taste; nothing wrong with black coffee of course because I do enjoy my espresso as well.

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5 hours ago, roadiejorge said:

I love sweets but what I've worked out for myself is to enjoy sweets in the form of fruit instead of the processed varieties. As a person who really enjoys chocolate, that took some doing but I still have some every now and again but much smaller amounts and much less frequently. I'm faced large amounts of chocolate everyday since my team has a candy basket where people continually fill it. The battle is ultimately mental; you can retrain your palate if you're persistent and try to replicate what you enjoy from unhealthy foods (texture, taste) into healthy alternatives. That has been really helpful and helped me avoid sudden cravings and the desire to binge.

Chocolate is my downfall. Have to learn to portion it out!

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4 minutes ago, Voodoo Child said:

Chocolate is my downfall. Have to learn to portion it out!

Goldenberg's Peanut Chews in Dark Chocolate are my downfall - I knew it the minute I saw them in the new vending machine. :D  Creative math is the problem - my rationale is I leave work at 4 with a 1.5 hour drive, so I need something to get me through to 5:3-6, but an extra 270 cals add up over time.

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7 minutes ago, Voodoo Child said:

Chocolate is my downfall. Have to learn to portion it out!

A good way to start is replacing chocolate cravings with small amounts of dark chocolates with high cacao count and little in the way of sugar; milk chocolate is loaded with other things you're better off avoiding with any degree of frequency. Mix that with some almonds and it's a better option than a candy bar

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Ok, the first two doctors shown are idiots and spouted several blatant falsehoods.  What crap already, and only 10 minutes in.

Omfg, now they are stupidly calling the American Cancer Society and questioning why they have recipes with beef in them on the website, like just having a recipe with beef is a crime or something.  Uh, could it be because beef is loaded with protein and vitamins and the fact that not everyone is vegan or vegetarian?  This is a very bad movie, and I am not feeling anything real here.

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54 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Nobody introduced the concept of moderation.  So we have a movie by a hypochondriac set out to prove know carcinogens cause cancer but again, doesn't address moderation in diet.  Sorry SW, but you are smarter than this.  Veganism, is a radical diet but if one finds solace in it, knock your socks off. Just know that, if you put the same effort into moderation, the health benefits would be astounding as well. 

We tend to treat things as all or nothing.  Reality however has a wide choice of grey.

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I agree there were a few parts of the show that seemed radical and unbelievable, but overall, I heard that eating animal products could lead to inflammatory diseases, hypertension and cardiovascular disease.  Even if none of this is true, I get all of the nutrition (definitely a lot more) than if I ate an animal based diet, so there is no loss for me.  If even 1/4 of what vegans claim is true, I will be significantly healthier than the average person.

Speaking of the average person, have you looked at people today?  Take a walk in the mall, the grocery store, the bank, on TV, pretty much anywhere.  So many people are huge, none of them look happy.  They look miserable just trying to get around.  I will not go back to being that.  Plus many are on meds.  You're overweight?  Here, take these diabetes, high blood pressure, stattns, gout, arthritis and so many other drugs.  Don't actually do anything to lessen the effect of your self induced disease, just take meds with many side effects and all is well.  What, the side effects are bothering (killing) you, here, take these...

Off to the basement to ride for an hour and a half, I hope I don't die being as malnourished as I am.  :)

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1 hour ago, Wilbur said:

Nobody introduced the concept of moderation.  So we have a movie by a hypochondriac set out to prove know carcinogens cause cancer but again, doesn't address moderation in diet.  Sorry SW, but you are smarter than this.  Veganism, is a radical diet but if one finds solace in it, knock your socks off. Just know that, if you put the same effort into moderation, the health benefits would be astounding as well. 

A hypochondriac with a man bun!  Sirius credibility killer IMO!  :D

OK, that was a cheap shot.  But he does sort of fail when he brings up the legitimate WHO statement on cured meats and then proceeds to attack ALL meat.

I have to admit the pig farm part got to me the most.  We used to have pig farms here, and they were strictly in the black areas and they stunk like hell!  I assume the rising cost of land here has sent them all to North Carolina.  Spraying pigshit into the air and letting it loose on land does not sound very wise.

 

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37 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

I agree there were a few parts of the show that seemed radical and unbelievable, but overall, I heard that eating animal products could lead to inflammatory diseases, hypertension and cardiovascular disease.  Even if none of this is true, I get all of the nutrition (definitely a lot more) than if I ate an animal based diet, so there is no loss for me.  If even 1/4 of what vegans claim is true, I will be significantly healthier than the average person.

Speaking of the average person, have you looked at people today?  Take a walk in the mall, the grocery store, the bank, on TV, pretty much anywhere.  So many people are huge, none of them look happy.  They look miserable just trying to get around.  I will not go back to being that.  Plus many are on meds.  You're overweight?  Here, take these diabetes, high blood pressure, stattns, gout, arthritis and so many other drugs.  Don't actually do anything to lessen the effect of your self induced disease, just take meds with many side effects and all is well.  What, the side effects are bothering (killing) you, here, take these...

Off to the basement to ride for an hour and a half, I hope I don't die being as malnourished as I am.  :)

Here is a little reading while you spin..

http://blog.primalpastures.com/uncategorized/china-study/

BTW, beans, legumes, soy...  extremely inflammatory and all a big part of vegan diets. 

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